00:02 - Stacey (Host)
Mark, do you think your exhaustion is your fault?
00:04 - Mark (Host)
I don't think I'm exhausted all that much.
00:07 - Stacey (Host)
I shouldn't say that.
00:08 - Mark (Host)
My wife is probably like what Are you kidding my son? No, well, yeah, no.
00:15 - Stacey (Host)
It's my schedule. I feel like if I'm exhausted it's because I've put myself in the situation to make myself exhausted Like no one else is making us do all these things that we do.
00:24 - Mark (Host)
No, but you have things you have to do. There are things that just have to get done.
00:29 - Stacey (Host)
There's things that don't have to get done, that we do.
00:31 - Mark (Host)
I don't do them.
00:32 - Stacey (Host)
Well, this podcast, we don't have to do this podcast.
00:34 - Mark (Host)
We have to. It's imperative.
00:35 - Stacey (Host)
I actually think it is.
00:37 - Mark (Host)
It is a scheduled act of kindness.
00:40 - Stacey (Host)
So what do you think our guest today, Dr Kristen Donnelly, would say Is this our fault that we're exhausted?
00:46 - Mark (Host)
No, I think she says everybody's different.
00:49 - Stacey (Host)
She says in her book title the Culture of Burnout. Why exhaustion is not your fault.
00:54 - Mark (Host)
That's fair.
00:55 - Stacey (Host)
So I think that would be her position.
00:58 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
Yeah, she was fascinating to talk to.
01:02 - Mark (Host)
I can't wait to go back and listen to this again and again, and again, because she's a social scientist, she has a phd in sociology, she studied people and processes and systems and she understands burnout in a way that I never fully appreciated and the difference between it and exhaustion my favorite thing that I learned on this podcast was that you cannot put and I you know this on every level you can't put people in a box, you can't.
01:27 - Stacey (Host)
you know, I'm always trying in this podcast to get the message out to people in an easy way, like three steps to this, you know, or tips and tricks here, because I feel like people like to digest that content that way.
01:39 - Mark (Host)
Sure, makes it easy.
01:40 - Stacey (Host)
But whenever I try to broach one of those questions with Kristen, she's like well, it's different for everyone. It's different for everyone because everyone's different. And so her inclusivity from the very beginning, I think, is fascinating and made me stop and pause and think. Yes, of course everyone's different, but I'm still trying to compartmentalize it so that people can understand what we're saying.
01:58 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, she studied people en masse, to the point where it lets you study yourself when you hear her talk and it's in such an approachable way for somebody so articulate and so intelligent that it's a great exercise in introspection. That's kind of what I was going through. Yeah, it's true, while we were listening to her talk.
02:17 - Stacey (Host)
I know that's why we were like on the edge of our seats, like I didn't even know what my next question was.
02:20 - Mark (Host)
Because I think, she's riveting.
02:21 - Stacey (Host)
I really, really do, and that's why she's had four TEDx speeches. She's won awards for her speaking.
02:26 - Mark (Host)
Best selling author.
02:27 - Stacey (Host)
Book has won all kinds of awards they talk about. So I mean like she's obviously on the right path and she's helping people and she can help you guys.
02:38 - Mark (Host)
I was just going to say, oh no, I just said it, I love it. We both agree this is a really helpful episode, so enjoy, dr Kristen Donnelly.
02:47 - Stacey (Host)
Hi, I'm Stacey.
02:49 - Mark (Host)
And I am Mark, and this is the Gurus and Game Changers podcast. Welcome in everybody. Well, some of our guests bring with them an incredible list of credentials, and today's guest, dr Kristen Donnelly, is one of those guests. She is a scientist, she's a social scientist, she has a PhD in sociology, an award-winning four-time TEDx speaker, educator, author of a best-selling book called the Culture of Burnout why Exhaustion is Not your Fault.
03:19
She believes in her core that she was put on this planet to help people and for more than two decades she has done just that. As she says, she's always asking herself how do I make your life better Because I am in it, and how many of us ask that question of ourselves as a spouse, as a friend, as a coworker, as a boss and all the other relationships that we have? Her company, abby Research, works with companies, works with teams to ask themselves those questions, works with companies, works with teams to ask themselves those questions and, more importantly, process and accept the different answers that come as a result. So today we are exploring you and the many hats that you wear, the many roles that you fill with our own in-house social scientist.
03:59 - Stacey (Host)
She's in-house now.
04:01 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
Congratulations on that one, dr Kristen Donnelly. Oh my gosh, thank you. That was such a kind and generous introduction. Thank you.
04:09 - Stacey (Host)
Do you know? You're in house now, evidently.
04:13 - Mark (Host)
You sign the paper when you leave Sounds good the book Culture of Burnout.
04:18 - Stacey (Host)
Is the winner of the Independent Press Awards 2024 Distinguished Favorite Award the Reader Views Silver Award. Congratulations. Get to read this the independent press awards 2024 distinguished favorite award the reader views silver award.
04:28 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
Congratulations thank you.
04:30 - Stacey (Host)
We're incredibly honored yeah what are a few takeaways you can give our audience about this book?
04:35 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
oh, my gracious. So first of all, I'm going to use the word we a lot today, and it's not because I am in line for the british throne, it's because I throw away all of this with my best friend and business partner, dr Erin Hinson, who lives in Pittsburgh, which is why she's not with us here in the Philadelphia studio today. But essentially, this book is about how America as a country values burnout and that the American dream actually requires people to be burned out. To achieve the American dream almost requires burnout, and that the American dream actually requires people to be burned out. To achieve the American dream almost requires burnout. And so that is why your exhaustion is not your fault.
05:13
We often talk about burnout as this individual problem with individual solutions. Oh, that person is burned out because they haven't drawn enough boundaries, or they're not taking enough bubble baths, or they're not in soul cycle. You know, whatever they're, they're burned out because they've done something wrong, without taking into account that we again as a society we hear the word busy and insert important, and that contributes to it and these foundations go all the way back to the 1600s and they've been around for a really, really long time and so it is both a societal problem. Are there individual contributors? For sure, absolutely, which means there's also individual solutions. But it's not a one-time. You're going to get out of burnout and then you're done, because you still live in a culture that encourages, perpetuates, promotes, celebrates burnout so what?
06:11 - Stacey (Host)
what are some signs that you're burned out? Because I know I, I think I am like I've run a company. I know some of my employees have told me they're burned out, but but is it like, can you just feel tired and it's not burnout? Like how do you know that you're actually burned out? That's a good question.
06:25 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
It's a fantastic question and, annoyingly, I'm going to tell you it's different for everyone.
06:30 - Stacey (Host)
I know.
06:31 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
I know, and I'll be honest, most of my answers today are going to be it depends.
06:35
That's fair. The kind of classic signs of burnout are that you're apathetic about everything. You're emotionally disconnected from your relationships. You feel a sense of like not even hopelessness around the world, but like hopelessness about your tasks and your place in it, like there's a futility to it, like, oh sure, I could get up and do this, but nothing's ever going to get better.
06:58
The real answer to what burnout is is that you are, it's, stuck in a perpetual stress cycle and your stress cycle never completes so the biological, physiological stress cycle that our bodies are all meant to have. It's supposed to end, and a lot of ours doesn't end it, doesn't it? Things just compound. So then, if you're kind of heading towards burnout and you're exhausted and you're flirting with it, maybe you drop your keys and you're in the snowbank. You like stomp your foot, you get angry, you might need to call and rant to somebody in the car and you might need to, but by the time you get to work or school or back home again, you're generally okay. Once you cross the burnout threshold, you only have about, let's say, 10% of your energy bank left. So you drop your keys in the snowbank and you just drop everything else. You go back to bed. And that's it, because instead of having 100 degrees of energy or emotional capacity, you now permanently have 20, 15.
08:01 - Mark (Host)
Because you're burned out.
08:02 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
Because you're burned out and so you've limited your kind of ability to emotionally engage in something, so everything becomes a crisis really, really quickly. Now you can take it back down. There's lots of ways to do that. There's lots of really great advice out there for what works and what doesn't work for people. There's lots of coaches, all of that. But I think one of the difference between deep exhaustion and burnout and I've certainly experienced both in my life and I know what it feels like in my body and in my relationships as different is that sense of no matter what I do. This will not change.
08:35 - Mark (Host)
It's a hopelessness.
08:36 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
Yeah, and not about life we're not talking about, like you now, then tip into suicidal ideation all the time. For some people, if they're prone to that, it might lead to that, but for other people they might feel really good about their home life, but their work life? They're completely burned out, or vice versa, and so it might only be isolated to one pocket of their lives. It might take over their whole lives.
08:57
This is the awkward thing about talking about burnout is that it really is deeply personal Because also everybody has different emotional capacities that they're born with, right they have different traumas that have already kind of like dug away at that emotional capacity. There's all sorts of different things. Mental health handles burnout, but basically if in your gut, as I'm talking, and you know that there's a piece of your life that you feel out of control in that will never, ever change, you have no control over that and you feel totally gone with it, you might be burned out.
09:30 - Mark (Host)
We know what's interesting is listening to you. It seems like the solution to burnout that's commercially available to us from marketed to us as a solution to burnout, has nothing to do with burnout Correct.
09:40 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
So it's the it's the yoga class, it's the massage, it's the ish, ish, it might for some people.
09:47 - Mark (Host)
For some people.
09:48 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
It might provide.
09:49 - Mark (Host)
But how does it address the hopelessness?
09:51 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
Because a lot of it is. You need to have rest and stop.
09:54 - Mark (Host)
Got it.
09:55 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
You need to create space in your life again to remember that life is bigger than you.
10:01 - Mark (Host)
Right.
10:01 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
That there is hope beyond this moment that there are changes available. You have to create space in that emotional capacity again so that you can be in relationship with other people and give them more of you than you might be able to if you're burned out. Give yourself more of you than you're able to when you're burned out, and those practices can create space. What are the four R's? One of them is rest, physical rest. We do all have to sleep, whether we like it or not. So if you're having trouble sleeping, we say go get a sleep test. You might have apnea. That's not like that's a thing. Buy the fancy podcast pillow, do get a new mattress. Sleeping is not automatic for everybody and there's no shame in that, but it's something that you have to do.
10:44 - Stacey (Host)
We don't sleep much no, no and we talk about it in the united states as this badge of honor like oh I only got two hours of sleep Like y'all.
10:50 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
that's not okay.
10:51 - Stacey (Host)
No, that's not okay, I totally agree.
10:53 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
We're just not meant to do that, and I did it for years. I'll be like wow, you know, I only got four hours last night, as though I was supposed to get applause for that.
11:04 - Mark (Host)
Instead of people being like thank you, so will give you applause for that. Oh my gosh, it's just not physically healthy yeah.
11:08 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
The second one is rejuvenation, because a huge part of being human is joy and having fun. That's what we've heard, that a lot we do not talk about that enough, especially for adults, yeah, so find things that bring you joy, make you have fun, and then intentionally guard time to do those things, because joy rarely happens accidentally in the adult grind of life. So create space for joy to happen. The third is realignment, which is creating a practice that reminds you who you are in the universe.
11:39
Also that you are very important, you are loved, you are wanted, you are all those things, but the tides will come in without you and therefore you can take a nap, you can delegate things. You are not the center of anyone's universe.
11:55 - Stacey (Host)
Why are you? Pointing at me and this, this is you need to understand. You know what I mean like you hold up.
12:00 - Mark (Host)
So you are all that, but you're not all that it's it, you're, you're, you're incredible.
12:04 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
Yeah, I always say like you are important, but you're not imperative, true? That's good and so and for people who have a spiritual practice.
12:10
This is the spiritual practice part of it right so for me, a very important part is I is connecting with the faith system that I have and understanding that I, my sense of purpose, my sense of calling. I was put on this planet, I believe, for a very specific reason and I need to be tapping into that as part of realignment. And the fourth is reconnection, because we actually all do need people, not only bio, like biophysically. We have to be with people. We always say that solitary confinement is cruel and unusual punishment under every law. For a reason. Humans need each other. So it's very simple, especially in burnout, to withdraw completely from humans, and so a good practice is to not withdraw. Now that looks different for everybody. Erin's an introvert who has a lot of gets sensory overwhelmed very quickly, so her reconnection looks very different than me, who is a raging extrovert and needs a lot. Who needs a lot of input.
13:05 - Stacey (Host)
So for me sometimes reconnection even just means going to the phillies game and I can feel the energy of everybody else.
13:08 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
For me sometimes reconnection even just means going to the phillies game and I can feel the energy of everybody else around me and I feel connected to the city and I feel connected to the team and I feel connected. That drains erin. That doesn't provide her reconnection right. So it might provide her reconnection with me if we go together, but then we have to calibrate for her to have other time to do things. It probably checks off her joy box because she loves baseball like.
13:31
I do, but you all kind of do these things together. So the four R's are rest, rejuvenation, realignment and reconnection, and when you cultivate practices of all four, it makes you more than anything. Honestly, what I believe is it makes you aware of your own self. At such a level you can feel burnout happening and prevent it faster. These things are not the things that, like, are prescriptive for preventing burnout in and of themselves. What they really do is create an environment in you where burnout is not welcome.
14:02 - Mark (Host)
I saw somewhere in some of the research that I did that you said people think Generation Z is lazy Correct, but they're not. Nope, is this related to the burnout topic? To a Correct, but they're not. Nope, is this related to the burnout topic?
14:12 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
To a certain extent. To a certain extent, our contention is that Gen Z is not lazy they are traumatized.
14:19 - Mark (Host)
They're traumatized. How so?
14:21 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
Gosh pick a feature. I mean fundamentally we as a society have provided them no safe spaces at all. School is not safe anymore, malls are not safe, concerts are not safe, home is not always safe. We have eliminated safe spaces in so many ways because we as an American society refuse to keep our children safe and refuse to change any laws that would help them stay safe and refuse to change any laws that would help them stay safe. And also we've taken away what social scientists call third spaces, which is places for kids and teenagers to hang out. That is not home or school. So, like when I was growing up, we just wandered around the mall for hours or we would sit outside. There was a kind of abandoned fountain outside of Oxford Valley Mall where I grew up.
15:14
And there was like kind of like little cliques Like the skater sat here and the theater kids sat over here and like, but that was incredibly important, my parents would drop us off and just like it would be fine right in. In some places where it's never been safe people, kids still found third spaces. It's why boys and girls clubs are so important. In more urban environments where there's not physical safe spaces, kids need third spaces with safe, safe, physically and emotionally safe third spaces without their parents or their teachers, in order to develop appropriately.
15:42
And we as a society have eliminated those they were cognizant enough to to understand their parents reactions to the 08 recession. So there's a lot of financial anxiety and a lot of financial anxiety in the generation. As a study, you want to know why Gen Z asks for raises all the time? Because we haven't taught them anything about money except that it could disappear tomorrow, and so they're panicked and a lot of this is subconscious. None of us can articulate these things, but researchers. We see patterns, then we throw them in COVID and most of them were at really specific developmental times. And you can tell me until you're blue in the face that missing your senior prom isn't traumatizing, and I'm never going to believe you, because what trauma really is in so many cases is. Is something, a dramatic event that changes how you thought life was supposed to be, and if you've spent 10 years dreaming of prom and all of a sudden it's gone it's trauma and we don't get to decide.
16:38
what is trauma for other people interesting? It's not the trauma olympics, like. There's not competition here, like you know. So we it is. And so all of all of these, you know, we always kind of joke like these precious little babies. We have set them up for so much failure that we handed them a ton of phones and said go find your identity on the Internet. And now you have Mark Zuckerberg sitting in front of Congress saying they've known for years that Instagram is damaging to teenage girls. Yeah, but it makes them a lot of money, so they don't care. They don't care, and so they're the first digital natives Gen Z is. So I have an analog childhood. I had an analog college experience Like I was the first one of my friends to have a cell phone. It was a Nokia brick and I could text my parents because they were 12 hours away and they wanted to be able to get a hold of me because they knew I would never sit in my dorm room and like, wait for their phone calls.
17:23
So I got a cell phone but I didn't get. I tell my kids I didn't get a smart. My students sorry, I don't have any children. I tell the students that we work with I didn't get a smartphone till like my second graduate degree and they're like I'm sorry, what? I had it when I was four, Like so. It's just a completely different world I didn't have them until I was 27.
17:44
Yeah, their brains were still doughy, developing, and we know now that brains generally sometimes don't don't stop developing until our early 30s, right. And so we've given them all of these tools to not function in the society that we are forcing them to function in, and even like millennials. One of the things I saw actually a really good meme I saw was that you set us up I'm an elder millennial, I'm four, I was 40 last year. You set us up for all of these dreams and then took away the world that they could come true in.
18:18
Great line, and that's also for Gen Z. We didn't even set them up to dream. They've also been watching millennials complain about debt for years, and you know there's all of these kind of things. Could the Gen Z in your office be lazy 100%? Could they also be panicked, exhausted, overwhelmed, developmentally delayed? Yes, if you are getting a college, a college student right out of college, and you are expecting them to act how you acted at 22, that is rude of you.
18:50 - Mark (Host)
So it sounds like it really is a function of burnout.
18:53 - Stacey (Host)
They're burned out before they get started, I want to go back to burnout.
18:55 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, they're burned out before they're I mean, yeah, they're burned out before.
18:58 - Stacey (Host)
Wow.
18:59 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
So God love them. I have a deep affection for two of them. I believe they will save us all in so many ways.
19:06
They are wonderful. They are passionate about making us sure that we are kind to each other. They want us to understand the world is bigger than we think they are but, just like millennials were when we were in our 20s, they're babies and they think very black and white and there's some things you just have to sit them down and be like darling. I know you want the world to work that way and maybe someday it will.
19:26 - Mark (Host)
And.
19:26 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
I love that, but it doesn't right now and that's not everyone else's fault, Right? So take a deep breath, Right, and let's move on together. So it's, and the same way that you know, we work with a lot of companies that are, you know, the elder generations, the boomers, are like they just don't want to work anymore. And I'm like, well, first of all they're. The phrase no one wants to work anymore has appeared in newspapers since 1909.
19:48 - Stacey (Host)
Every generation believes the younger generations don't want to work anymore.
19:51 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
That's a pattern of pattern of Western life, but also just because they don't want to work. The way you work doesn't mean they don't want to work, and so we need to open up our imagination of what humanity can look like, which is the same thing for burnout when we talk about the American, the American dream, and that it's largely impossible for most people now anymore economically and socially. We have to open up our imagination of what it means to be American and what it means to be human and what it means to be in relationship, because if we just keep doing what we've been doing since the womb burned out husks inner of of humans is the end result, and we all deserve more what would you say to like an employer who, like maybe is either a boomer or gen x like?
20:40 - Stacey (Host)
is there a different way of dealing with a gen z employee?
20:46 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
there's a balance you don't want to. I don't want you to treat entry-level employees or Gen Z as babies they're not, but I don't want you to treat them as fully grown professionals in their 40s.
20:56 - Mark (Host)
Hey guys, thanks for listening. If you like what you're hearing, please leave us a review, give us a follow, subscribe, all those things. All those things. We love it because we read each and every comment and it helps shape the show, so we would appreciate it.
21:09 - Stacey (Host)
We read each and every comment and it helps shape the show. So we would appreciate it, please.
21:12 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
And back to the show. So, but everybody I talk to that has Gen Z's and loves them. Once you just figure out some, here are the things I will give you. Here are the things you have to give me off and running.
21:22 - Stacey (Host)
Right, very clear, very specific, just be super clear.
21:24 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
And they want really really frequent feedback. Remember their brains are programmed on dopamine hits for likes on social media all the time, so monthly reviews might not work. Maybe you can negotiate out to weekly reviews. They don't want to email you something on Monday and not hear back for three weeks because that's not how their brains are chemically wired to work anymore. Again, everyone is different. You could have a kid that defies this. I was very different than a lot of millennial stereotypes, but I fit a lot of other ones. So get to know your employees. No one's an interchangeable cog in a profit machine anymore. Get to know your employees and figure out what they need. Ask them questions, ask them questions. I say the same thing when people don't have maternity policies, by the way. They're like well, how do we start with a maternity policy? And I was like well, ask the pregnant woman in your office what she wants. Start there, just ask questions.
22:16 - Stacey (Host)
They're probably worried she's going to want too much oh.
22:18 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
I'm sure. But if you don't know what someone wants, you can't negotiate anything. No, no for sure.
22:32 - Stacey (Host)
As writers.
22:34 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
This could be for Gen Z or for any employee. Three things that employers should do to make sure that burnout doesn't happen for their employees. Be really, really clear about expectations around time and time off. Do not prioritize parents over other caregivers. Do not assume that if someone is not a caregiver, they do not deserve the same time off as other people. Two, don't do any sort of bonding experience that involves shaming others in any way. So like no more weight loss challenges, no more eating things, no more any of that. It continues to alienate people in a way that doesn't need to happen.
23:13
And three, if you've got folks in your office, this is really concrete. You have folks in your office that do not celebrate the same holidays that you do, do not root for the same sports teams you do, don't eat the same food you do. Come up with creative ways to introduce those things to the rest of your team. So one example that we've used is if you have off, if you close your factory or close anything for Christmas, be aware that then, if you have a um, an employee who is Muslim, or an employee who is Jewish or an employee you like, think about if you really want to charge them a day off for their fasts and feasts. How does that feel? What does that look like? Just think about it. Have a consideration if you have a Muslim employee, do have you helped them figure out where in the building they can is east so they can always pray if they need to pray, if they are that practicing Muslim. For food like maybe on someone's birthday, instead of having cake, because not everybody likes cake, not everybody can eat cake. We know there's lots of dietary stuff First of all, ask the person if they even want to be celebrated. They might not want to be. And two, maybe instead be like what's your favorite childhood food? Like let's make it and eat it. So there's lots of, there's lots of creative ways to kind of do that, to center the employee as often as possible, which I know employers are going to be like but we have to get stuff done. And like I have to keep the lights on and like blah, blah, blah, I get it, I get it, we do it all the time.
24:38
It's a balance, but you can hold people and profit in a tension that requires negotiation, possibly on a regular basis. But from all the research I've read and lived experience and talking to friends, when people know that their personhood is valued, good things happen. We can create boundaries and we can say these are the tasks this role requires. I'm never saying don't do that. Hold people accountable to the things they have agreed to do. Absolutely, fire some. Fire somebody's ass if they're not doing the things they they said they do. Absolutely we have, and I would advocate for that all over the place. But if somebody quits because they didn't feel respected, that's on you as a leader. That's on you.
25:28
And there's balances and checks and balances here. The way that we did business in the 80s, where everybody came in, wore the same thing, did the same thing that no longer exists. We figured out it made about 5% of the population, a whole lot of money and made a lot of other people very miserable, and so we're trying to rewrite it. When you ask more questions and you make less assumptions of your employees, of your spouses, I am a better wife now that I practice these practices and I ask more questions and I make less assumptions and I don't just jump to conclusions. I make sure I have as much informed data as possible. And that's the same in parenting, in friendships, in volunteer organizations, in cut and lines in grocery stores and in your job.
26:20 - Mark (Host)
People that you're referring to are very emotionally intelligent, emotionally mature, but I see a wild dearth of emotional intelligence in the world, whether it's driving or in relationships and dealing with families. Why is that? And don't say it depends Breath.
26:41 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
She takes a deep breath and considers Emotional intelligence is one of the final stages of psychological development and not everybody gets there. You have to have gotten out of an entirely self-centric worldview in order to be emotionally intelligent.
27:04 - Mark (Host)
And all of social media is pushing us in the other direction.
27:07 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
Correct and all of our phones are fear machines.
27:09 - Mark (Host)
Right.
27:10 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
Like we carry around anger machines in our pockets.
27:12 - Mark (Host)
Yes, anger machines.
27:13 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
Because everybody makes money off of our anger and our fear. That's how they make money. You're afraid of aging, you're afraid of terrorism, you're afraid of car accidents, you are afraid of something. And they have the solution here, in four installments of 1995 I am not saying that that is bad. I am saying we need to recognize it for what it is. People make money off our fear our pain points.
27:39 - Stacey (Host)
That's, that's what you research. Everybody you're trying to market, everybody has them. So for an employee who's thinking that they're burned out and they're feeling it and they maybe don't know what to do, what would you tell them to say to their employer? Because I know too, when you talk about Gen Z, I know a lot of them just want to do it on their own. I'm just going to do it on my own. I don't want to bug that person or they don't know how I'm feeling, or yeah, so how, how?
28:10 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
how would you coach them? Gosh? Well, first of all, work the four R's and figure out what is actually to do with your employer and what is to do with you. So if you bring your employer clear, cut things that you need from them, that is always going to go better than I don't feel well or I feel burned out.
28:26
When I talk to employers, burnout is a word that they feel is often very abused and that people and so I often say I was like if someone's in your office, just be like I'm really really burned out. In my experience, they might not be, because the people who are truly burned out think they're fine, often a lot of the times our research shows and so they're on their way to burnout. Those people are on their way to burnout, but the ones that you should actually be the most worried about are the ones who are just putting their head down and working and not talking to anybody and like their work product is dropping or like there's other signs, like they're not complaining. There are other signs are, but if you feel burned out, I don't care if you're on the journey or you're there Again, this is just patterns.
29:08
These are just patterns of behavior, is all I'm saying. So any employer I've ever met would rather have concrete things to react to than feelings, because feelings are while they are. I want to know them and I want to get your context and I want to be with you. I need you to tell me what you need so I can react to it. Because if you just come into my office and you tell me, I'm like again, I've written a book on this and if one of my employees came in and said I'm burned out, I would have no reaction to that other than what do you need then? What do you need.
29:42
What do you need from me? So if one of my employees came in and said I really need to do yoga, I know I need to do it and that means I've got to leave 15 minutes early every Tuesday. I can work with that. I have this, this project that you gave me. I have to give a piece of it away. Okay, cool, let's do that. Let's figure that out. Give them something concrete. So work the four steps, the four R's, the best you can Be as critical as you can Talk to if you have a work spouse or a work bestie kind of work. Figure this all out. What are the concrete things an employer can do to help you achieve what you need to do to shift your life to being anti-burnout and more balanced?
30:25 - Stacey (Host)
Oh, I love that. So before you even go to your employer, you need to figure out like I am feeling burned out. Let me look at these four R's, let me figure out how to get myself better. And then, once you figure that out, then you go to your employer and like look, here's how I'm feeling and here's what I need. And then the employer is going to say okay, Because.
30:44 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
so one of the things we know, the other thing we know is that women get burned out at work and men get burned out at home. So because we burn out in the place that we are not culturally programmed to thrive men are culturally programmed to thrive at work and women are culturally programmed to thrive in caregiving and home and unpaid labor roles. So for women, their burnout might have nothing to do with their office at all. They might not need that. They might need a nanny, they might need to suck it up and get a cleaner, they might need to do HelloFresh. They might need to understand that their kids are allowed to eat on crustables at night if they're too tired, like. It could be a non-work solution, because the root cause of it all is not work. And for men, they could look at their, at their spouses, and say you've just got to take the kids, I'm feeling really tired, no, no, no. The problem is at work, the problem is not at home. You just that's the easiest, the lowest hanging fruit solution. The problem is probably at work, so like. So that's why we're kind of encouraging to do all of that.
31:45
Now, it is hard, it's hard as hell, it's hard, it's hard work. Doing anything inside yourself is hard work because our brains are programmed to keep everything the same. So anytime you question yourself, your brain goes no, it's fine, everything's fine, nothing to see here, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. So it's hard, but you can do it. We can do hard things, we can. Humans are complicated people. We are, you know, 90% water and a lot of emotional trauma. So we're like cucumbers, with emotions, like it's. We're hard but we're worth it.
32:23 - Stacey (Host)
How can we all human better?
32:24 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
Be kind to ourselves and other people.
32:27 - Mark (Host)
Is it that easy? No, it's that simple, that simple, it's that simple.
32:31 - Stacey (Host)
There's so many people who aren't kind, and you see it every day. You see the haters on social media. You see people just picking out the worst in people. You saw it happen with Kate Middleton.
32:43 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
Gracious, oh, my goodness you know, I mean.
32:46
I mean we see it happen with with athletes. We see it happen. I mean, like God. I mean I love this city but man, are we picky with our public figures and our and our athletes in particular, and our coaches and all of those kinds of things? I think there's lots of psychology. You know people are not kind to other people because they're not kind to themselves. And you're kind of. You know you are an angry person and so you're angry. What's the other one? Hurt people, hurt people, like all of that kind of stuff. I can't control anybody else. I can't control a thing. I can't control how you react to me. I can't control a thing. I can't control how you react to me. I can't control any of it. What I can control is how I talk to myself and how I talk to other people.
33:29 - Mark (Host)
What's the nicest thing and the meanest thing you're saying to yourself?
33:38 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
The nicest thing I'm saying to myself is that I am? A good speaker and I'm a good trainer. Thank you so much. And that I am good at these pieces of my job. Okay, the meanest thing I am saying to myself is that I am too much for people. Got it and that I need to make myself less so I don't offend people. I'm too large, I'm too loud, I'm too much Too present. And I need to go away, so I don't bother people. That's the thing I say to myself all the time.
34:05 - Mark (Host)
And then do you remind yourself that that's not on you as much as I can.
34:10 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
As much as I can, but I've also enlisted other people in my life to tell me those things because I know my inner. My neurodivergence means that my brain is a loud liar, and so I make sure that I have folks that I can text quickly. We have some code words and then they can tell me the truth back instead of. That's cool. I have people that love me and remind me who I am when I've forgotten, and I'm very grateful.
34:40 - Stacey (Host)
And you probably do that for other people too.
34:42 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
I hope so. I certainly try, I certainly try.
34:44 - Stacey (Host)
So I guess, like if we're all trying to be human better and hopefully everyone is trying on some level- on some level to be human better. What can we do as our little microcosm group, or what can, like, everyone do to help people human better Is there, is there a way? Can we?
35:02 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
I think people honestly respond to kindness. I away, can we? I think people honestly respond to kindness. I don't think it's more. I don't think there's anything other than be kind to yourself and kind to other people. I think, when people see kindness modeled and they feel kindness in themselves and I should say kindness is not niceness, how do you?
35:15 - Stacey (Host)
define.
35:15 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
I am not always nice, define kindness kindness is is centering the humanity of the other person and treating them with dignity and respect and empathy probably and sometimes.
35:25
Sometimes dignity and respect means calling people out. Sometimes dignity and respect means, if somebody is verbally abusing a restaurant worker, you stepping in and be like, no, you were actually very kind to that person because you created, you, showed them how to dignity. You know what I mean. Like it's. It's that kind of thing. I women are taught to be nice to our own detriment, to our own physical safety, to our own emotional safety. We are taught to be nice. Now there's a lot of circumstances in which we do have to be nice for our physical safety, so we have to do it, but not enough people are taught how to be kind it's good stuff.
36:05
Yeah.
36:05 - Mark (Host)
Now you know why. She's our in-house social scientist. This is why we really don't pay well. But yeah, the hosts don't get paid well. Well, how can we help?
36:14 - Stacey (Host)
you and Abby. How can we get the word out for you? We have 3,000 people that watch this. What can we do?
36:22 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
Well, I mean, obviously, if you know anyone who is looking for somebody to come into their company and lead these kind of conversations, we would love to be in that relationship with them. The book is available on Amazon and you can get it on Kindle and Amazon and audiobook is coming soon, so we'd love for you to engage with the book and, other than that, be kind to yourself and kind to other people.
36:47 - Mark (Host)
Simple words Love it. What did you say? It's not easy, but it is simple.
36:52 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
It's so straightforward, it's so simple and it's really devastatingly hard to do.
36:57 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, that's great, thank you. Seven million more things I could probably ask you right now. I know we're going to keep talking. I have this problem with podcasts.
37:07 - Kristen Donnelly, PhD (Guest)
I know I talk too much, no, you don't?
37:09 - Stacey (Host)
No, it's just so intriguing that I just like. I'm like wait a minute.
37:12 - Mark (Host)
What else can I ask?
37:13 - Stacey (Host)
her.
37:14 - Mark (Host)
I know right.
37:15 - Stacey (Host)
But thank you for coming, thank you for joining us, my pleasure.
37:20 - Mark (Host)
Thank you for for watching. We will see you again soon.
37:27 - Stacey (Host)
You're still here. You're still listening. Thanks for listening to the gurus and game changers podcast While you're here. If you enjoyed it, please take a minute to rate this episode and leave us a quick review. We want to know what you thought of the show and what you took from it and how it might've helped you. We read and appreciate every comment. Thanks, See you next week.