Is College Really Necessary for Success? | Ep 005

During our latest chat with true innovator Shaun Ziegler, we embarked on a journey that begins in a kindergarten lunchroom and ventures into the realms of the unknown. As children, we all had grand dreams, but few of us were the kids selling lollipops before we even knew multiplication. Shaun shares his story of moving from an impromptu candy vendor to a young landscape business owner, pushing boundaries at every turn. He'll let you in on how he navigated high school, challenged the status quo, and earned respect while often butting heads with those in power.

As we journeyed with Shaun into his college years, we discovered moments of intense self-realization. His brief college stint, a life-altering accident, and the wisdom gleaned from working in his family's company, finpay, all play integral roles in shaping his views on life and entrepreneurship. We also find ourselves wrestling with the societal impacts of innovation, and how creating a loving, family-centric culture can counterbalance these effects. Shaun underlines the necessity of balance in today's world, believing in your 'why', and investing in activities that replenish your energy.

The unknown doesn't scare Shaun; rather, he views it as a space for exploration and potential breakthroughs. We traverse thought-provoking topics from telepathy to airplanes, discussing how our lifestyle choices can unlock our ability to tap into the unknown. The legacy of legendary innovators, like Steve Jobs and Nikola Tesla, and the impact of today's tech leaders such as Ivan Zhao, are also under our microscope. As we wrap up, we leave you with our favorite quotes, an appreciation for the power of love, benefits of chilly ice baths, and a hopeful outlook on the future. Come join us for an enlightening conversation with Shaun, and get ready to be inspired by this relentless journey of entrepreneurship that is just beginning.

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The Gurus and Game Changers Podcast  focuses on individuals with unique insights and solutions based on their life experiences. 
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Inspirational journeys abound when you listen to some of our guests as they describe their personal transformation with unconventional wisdom with real-life stories. Their
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At Gurus and Game Changers we thrive on authentic storytelling and non-traditional paths to success described with empowering voices. These motivational insights
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These inspirational role models or 'Wild Ducks' as they've been described always come with a positive mindset in describing transformative experiences and evolving perspectives.


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PLEASE NOTE: **The views expressed by participants, including hosts and guests, are their own and not necessarily endorsed by the podcast. Reference to any specific individua

Transcript

0:00:02 - Mark

Hi, I'm Stacey and I am Mark, and this is the Guru's a Game Changers podcast. 

0:00:10 - Stacey

Welcome, welcome, welcome Guru's, welcome Game Changers, Mark. 

0:00:15 - Mark

Stacey.

0:00:16 - Stacey

I am so excited and happy to introduce to everyone Shaun Ziggler. Thank you for having me. Yeah, i've actually known Shaun for a lot of years, right? Yes, how many years, i think we've so like at least 10. 

0:00:31 - Shaun

10. 

0:00:31 - Stacey

Yeah, in the same class as my son, Yep Zach Zach Bonnell Matt on the first day of high school. Oh really, Yeah, Wait tell me that story real quick. 

0:00:40 - Shaun

It was actually hilarious because we obviously refreshment year. We don't know anybody. I didn't know anybody because I came from a smaller school and Zach didn't know anybody because he transferred last minute from Malvern Prep Yeah, from Malvern Prep And I'm Ziggler, so I'm Z, and when you first go on freshman year they align you in your seats based on alphabetical order and Zach is B, zach Bonnell. So he was B and then. But he was right behind me And I was like I'm supposed to be here, but Zach was there because I guess he transferred to Shanahan like the week before school. So they just threw him in behind me And so just me and him in the Spanish class with, like this other girl. That was kind of cute And we definitely got along right away. 

Oh yeah, it was just funny, and he didn't know anybody, i didn't know anybody. We're both really short, brown hair, long hair. 

0:01:30 - Stacey

So we just, we just you guys are kind of like the FFs that year. 

0:01:33 - Shaun

Oh yeah, we hung out all the time I was at the Bonnells and the grants all the time. 

0:01:38 - Stacey

I know Those are good days. Good days, yeah, i was going to say when I first went to Shawn he was in my basement right Hanging out with Zach and some of the other boys And then, but I think right from the beginning, i kind of knew you had there was something different about Shawn, right, something different. Like you weren't exactly like all your buddies. Like you, you wanted to talk about different, more serious things. You know about work, and not always I mean you're still fun. You know. I'm not saying that you were just always focused on that stuff, but but for sure I mean you were more focused on work, right. 

0:02:13 - Shaun

Yeah, and to me it wasn't work. It's more, just I was more interested in different things, like I was more curious about like my interests not that it was better or worse were just really around worldly things and worldly problems, and I don't know why that was, but like ever since I was in second grade, like that was, that was how I thought. So I observed the world and would just ask why are these things happening? And then it would always get me down these rabbit holes of curiosity where, at a certain point, the things I enjoyed talking about which maybe are some of the observed things that you saw were so outlandish to people, because I was so far in the rabbit hole. 

0:02:58 - Stacey

I didn't say, i wouldn't say it's outlandish, i was impressed. We're not in that way. We're not in that way. Yeah, in a good way, yeah. 

0:03:03 - Shaun

Outlandish to like maybe freshman sophomore year. 

0:03:06 - Mark

Right. 

0:03:06 - Shaun

So now, like my high school friends, to me I'm the same person, just evolved more and even deeper in the rabbit hole. But I've really just I just they see me out in the world doing my thing and they're like a little surprised in a way, because I blended in with them. 

0:03:20 - Mark

Yeah, you know, i was friends because they were my friends too. 

0:03:22 - Shaun

I just enjoyed that, but it's always been like this I've always just been deeply curious and deeply interested in worldly things which can be classified as work, but to me it's just passion and interest. 

0:03:33 - Stacey

That's interesting. Yeah, that's good. So, like what was the first kind of company you created? Because it couldn't have just been Ziggs landscaping? I think there had to be stuff earlier than that. 

0:03:43 - Shaun

Well, if you wanted to go back into like grade school wasn't really like a company. 

0:03:47 - Stacey

Grade school entrepreneur. I'm serious Like this Yeah. 

0:03:50 - Shaun

It wasn't necessarily like a full company, but there were definitely some little grade school things that I'd be doing. So like the earliest one was probably in kindergarten. We would go to our deli, which is this breakfast spot Kindergarten, like five or six, yeah, i don't know how old that is. We would go to this breakfast spot with my dad, you know, a couple of times a week before school, and they gave free lollipops. So I would go and get a bunch of free lollipops and then I would go into the scarce lunchroom where there was no lollipops and to sell them for like five, 10 bucks a pop. 

0:04:27 - Stacey

What Lollipops for five bucks? Yeah, sometimes you would give it Price gala Just a fit. There was no lollipops. I was the only person who had lollipops. Scarcity values, scarcity values. 

0:04:36 - Shaun

So that was probably my earliest taste. My mom would made me give back a lot of the money, but that was one of the earliest things. 

0:04:43 - Mark

It's a good ethical lesson there. 

0:04:44 - Shaun

Yeah. 

0:04:45 - Stacey

Stephanie's awesome, your mom's awesome Yeah, she is a legend. 

0:04:48 - Shaun

But so that was one of the earliest things, but Zig's actually started in eighth grade, so it was. It was relatively early too, but it evolved throughout high school. 

0:04:59 - Stacey

Yeah, i mean some kids start like landscaping business, like you'll find like a flyer in your mailbox or you'll like they'll call you and say I can walk your dog. Shaun I am not kidding because I was one of his clients had a full on business starting in eighth grade. 

0:05:11 - Mark

Eighth grade. 

0:05:11 - Stacey

Full on. You had the spreadsheets. 

0:05:13 - Mark

Wow. 

0:05:13 - Stacey

You would hire No, tell me from wrong. You would hire people friends. You knew that you could rely on. Zach did a couple of days, I think. 

0:05:20 - Shaun

Yeah, zach did a couple of days, yeah. So it started with me and my neighbors in the neighborhood Like we just a summer job in eighth grade, handed out flyers, like it usually starts, and it was great. You know, we were wasn't much of a business, was more like Hey, we'll charge $20 an hour and you pay us directly, but we do the work. The next year My neighbors left and were like we're going to work at an ice cream shop, right, so they let it drive. I'm like it's pretty good, like I can just start, you know, hiring my friends or you know hiring other people to do this work And I charge premium And I don't have to do the work. Necessarily, i will too to make more, but they make more. 

So I started hiring all my friends in high school originally and all my brother, older brothers, friends, which was a weird dynamic because I was younger than them, like freshman year high school, and there are sophomores or juniors in high school And I'm like telling them what to do, which was definitely a weird dynamic but very healthy for me and my evolution of like managing people. So they kind of just continue to evolve. I would be at baseball practice and then I would have you know four or eight people of my high school friends out who didn't have a sport in the season doing the landscaping. A lot of them will probably tell you some funny stories because I think they built some good memories together. But I think every single one of my friends like 25, 30 plus people cycled through that business. 

That was the supplier, the employer of a head of high school. 

0:06:49 - Stacey

But you're working in spreadsheets like you were, like this was how over you. 

0:06:53 - Shaun

Yeah, eighth grade to you know, freshman, sophomore year and evolved? 

0:06:57 - Mark

Yeah, I guess 13, 14. 

0:06:59 - Shaun

But that I got very good because I'm more of a mathematical mind Right And I'm more a blend between math and, i guess, like a little charisma and salesmanship or vision. So the operations of the business, like the how to do the landscaping and all that stuff wasn't what I really enjoyed by any means, but I love the behind the scenes stuff of getting the clients, you know, running the numbers and doing all those things And I was really good at that. So there was many seasons where we had way too much work and I'm like how do I do this operationally? 

And then we had to scale back a little bit, slow down, because we didn't have the capital to get the equipment. But and I would literally just take it as practice to me, that was my practice reps It wasn't about the money, it was very profitable. But there were many times where people owe me money and I was like, whatever, i'm not, i'm not gonna. I'm not doing this necessarily for the money, i'm doing this for training, for myself. So that wasn't priority number one, which tends to be all. You got to get the money. You know it would be for any other business that's growing. You got to get the money in the door. It was more how will we track the money? We understand how much money. 

0:08:05 - Mark

Well, what is our margin here? Where's it coming from? How do we maximize? 

0:08:08 - Shaun

How do we make more money, more revenue And how do we maximize the efficiency? So we would have systems down to get you know, turn the the mulching from three hours to one and a half hours And that basically cut half the cost because we're charging a flat fee on the expense. So stuff like that. It wasn't just about the landscaping work itself, which was I found an enjoyment to it, but that was my passion. It was really deeply the the fact that I could rally all these troops, come up with a creative solution to work on this property, get that homeowner to trust me that we could do the execute on the solution and then get the troops to deliver. 

0:08:47 - Stacey

But how did you know how to do that Like was there? did you have a guru? Did you have someone who modeled how to build a business for you, or did you just kind of inertly know how to do that, Like innately? 

0:08:58 - Shaun

I guess I should say There's a lot of entrepreneurs I guess you call it I don't love that word But entrepreneurs in my family and, as I mentioned, like in second grade, I dressed up as Benjamin Franklin, who you could say is like the OG entrepreneur you know, discovered electricity with the lightning rod, and so that was my programming. 

You know, they say from one to seven, every information comes in your head and you'll absorb it all, whether it's true or not. From seven to 13, information comes in your head and you can kind of start to pick and choose, like that's true, that's not, that's true, that's not. And then 13 on, you can block things from coming your head. So from one to even. You know this was second grade, so it was around seven, seven to 13,. My programming was all based on that, like the fact that you could discover lightning and invent something new. So that was my programming. Most children's programming is the normal stuff, like toys, maybe sports or whatever it might be, but truthfully, like that was my programming. So from that I think I just became a sponge of information and just like observed, so observed even being at restaurants, whatever business was going on. Or you know, fortunately my godfather was an entrepreneur himself. 

I didn't see him much because he was in Miami, but whenever he was in town I would just be watching and like learning, not even asking much questions, but we'd be going around town and he's this very charismatic guy and he'd be in like the Costco for, like we would go Christmas shopping, whatever, We would never end up getting presents, we would just end up getting food. but we would go to like the Costco And we're like why are we going to Costco for presents? There's a mall right down the street. 

It's kind of bulk shopping too, Yeah, bulk shopping for like we're like okay, i'll go to this Costco And right when you walk in the Costco there's all these signs for like these cars because they had this car buying program at Costco And he's taken all these pictures of all these signs. He's asking people like hey, what do you think about this? Just in the store and you know I'm probably in third- He's doing his own market research Fourth grade exactly. 

But I didn't fully realize that. I'm more just like why is he doing this Like as a third grader, fourth grader, And then a few years later, maybe like four or five years later, he launches the Walmart of all-buying. So he launches the same Costco program but for Walmart, which is a way bigger store, And it's coming called CarSaver. So now they power all of Walmart's car buying online and other companies like Nissan and some others. And that was from his market research that he was doing when I was in third grade, fourth grade, And I just kind of connected with that So, being the fact that I had this programming of you can invent things, you can build things you can do things. 

And then I had that opportunity to absorb that as a sponge. You know, just let it going out of Costco and learning. It was like whoa. And that kind of became my program. 

0:12:03 - Mark

You definitely are thinking at a different level than eighth graders, typical eighth graders or a typical second. Grader. I mean, you're looking at possibilities, you're being steeped in it from such an early age So that you know there's something other than video games, tv books, sports, sports sports sports. Yeah, exactly. So you definitely had a different upbringing, exactly. 

0:12:23 - Stacey

So when you were like that, did you know, did people treat you differently? Did you feel different? I know you said something about how your high school teachers kind of loved you but also hated you at the same time, like for whatever reason. What did you mean by that? 

0:12:39 - Shaun

Yeah. So back to the thinking different or feeling different, i would say it started in grade school. I definitely felt a little different And then I would fit in. I was good at fitting in, you were awesome, but yeah. 

0:12:50 - Stacey

Fun to hang out with, to me, i felt different. 

0:12:52 - Shaun

But other people seemed like I tend to fit in. But I felt like I was very. I was like do other people just think about everything? Like there was a point of time in my life in fourth or fifth grade where I would probably be like can you please just shut my brain up. 

0:13:06 - Stacey

Let me just be a kid. 

0:13:08 - Shaun

And I would, because I just thought I was thinking about everything, like having conversations in my head before I have them, or thinking about just X, y and Z, like the secondary, third-dairy, fourth-dairy effects of all these different situations, and while kids are laughing about some stupid joke. I just didn't think that was that funny. It didn't make sense to me. I was like, why can't I just be like that? But I ended up. I actually love that about me now. 

Then there was a small period of time where I was like, can you shut this up? But in high school I'm somebody who I respect people Like. I do respect people with great respect and I treat people kindly. But I don't just follow things just because I'm told to follow things And if I'm disrespected like you can't expect me to respect you back. So at Shanahan there's a lot of rules for no reasons. 

0:13:58 - Stacey

It was in Catholic school. Right, There was a Catholic school and particularly really strict. 

0:14:03 - Shaun

So it's not all Catholic schools are like that, but this one definitely was. And so I, you know, given that nature like I, wasn't disrespected people. I wasn't like treating people poorly, I wasn't getting in fights or smoking weed or doing all these bad things. Yet at a certain point I probably led the school in demerits because you and Zach, but I think you and Zach It all started that first day, first year, we were together. 

0:14:27 - Mark

Yeah. 

0:14:28 - Shaun

But so I would, you know, just not wear the shoes or have my phone in my pocket or show up really late to school or, you know, stop by the lunch room to say what's up to my friends. 

0:14:40 - Stacey

Sell lollipops. 

0:14:40 - Shaun

Like my class whatever whatever it might be, And they would just bust on me and try to like for the dynamic there. Since you're in this box, a lot of these teachers get this like power hunger. And then the second there was like a rebel. Their power hunger gets like Right. 

0:14:57 - Stacey

I got to shut this person down. 

0:14:58 - Shaun

Yeah, it's like they get threatened by this power hunger because I would explain things, logic and whatnot, And what probably pissed them off the most is I wouldn't do all the BS assignments or anything like that. And then we get hundreds on the desk. 

0:15:11 - Stacey

Right, we get all. 

0:15:12 - Shaun

A's Right. So like well, you know what do we got on this kid Like he's. 

0:15:16 - Mark

He didn't fit the mold. 

0:15:17 - Shaun

Yeah, i didn't fit the mold of like the rebellious kid. Yet I was a rebellious kid, right. But what are you going to say? Like I'm, i'm a like screw up. You know what they generally say You're a reject, you're going to fail in college, you're going to do all those things? Well, guess what? I'm employing half your school in my business And I'm getting straight A's in AP physics and AP calc and in all these higher classes. So that's where, like the part where I mentioned, i think they had a respect. 

I recognize that at the last day of school graduation, they try to not give you my diploma because two days prior there was graduation practice and they had two And I'm Z. So graduation practice, all you do is like they call your name and you stand up and you go, but by the time Z comes, there's 250 reps of students that go. It's pretty simple. I think I got this and they had a second practice the next day for some reason, and I have work, like we had a client's job that needed to get done And like, to be honest, we were going on senior week the next week. So I had none of my workforce because I still my work. 

First was my high school buddies and I wasn't going to be there. So we had to get this job done and the rest of my crew, or most of them at least, were at the graduation practice, because they're our buddies. They're like all right, well, i'm going to get this job done, i'm not going to graduation practice. This is priority, obviously. And they took that as an insult or as disrespect for some reason, and they try to not give me my diploma when I was graduating high school. So, like everybody gets their diploma, you go back to your classroom, they hand it to everybody and they just didn't, you know, hand it to me. I'm like where the heck am I diploma? 

I was somebody who really wanted to get the freak out of high schools. I'm like come on, give me my diploma. I want to be, done with this, but that's where I saw some other teachers. I could tell they respect me because I was asking them and they're like, look like, they like have my back. They supported me. 

0:17:07 - Stacey

That's great. 

0:17:08 - Shaun

Most of the teachers who gave me shit all throughout high school were then like supporting me, so we ended up fighting and got to get this kid out of here Now yeah, I was like you really want to hold me in, Like you want to keep me here. I thought you want me out. 

0:17:22 - Stacey

Well, so just I'm curious, and then I'm going to let you ask a question, mark. But so, like when you started this company and when you're like employing all the high school kids and we're going to get to the fact that you actually sold this company, which is fantastic But when you were doing that, what did your family think? Were they like oh, that's just Shaun, or you know, and or is this like you know something? where? like, wow, this is incredible. We're just like, this is pretty much what he does. 

0:17:47 - Shaun

Like I don't think it was a blend. I think they were like this is, this is awesome. They were doing that Like my dad would always say stuff like that. 

0:17:54 - Mark

It's really good You're. 

0:17:55 - Shaun

You know you're doing stuff like this, like or whatever. But I think at the same time I have, because I was also, you know, freshman sophomore year. I couldn't trade the stocks because I was an 18, but I was also like in the financial markets and I was also you were trading stocks at 18. 

0:18:11 - Stacey

Oh yeah, i mean definitely personally, but once I turned 18, I was good. 

0:18:16 - Shaun

But before that I couldn't. But I was studying in them like religiously, so I was. I was telling all my picks. I'm like dad, if you listen to me, you would be so freaking rich right now. But he didn't. But like I was telling before, before the Model S of Tesla, even before the Model S, i was following Tesla and I was like you know make fun of you all the time You love us. 

Yeah, make fun of me because that now I would always say Tesla is going to be one of the biggest companies in the world and Elon Musk is going to be the richest man in the world. This was back when Elon was worth maybe $10 billion, maybe, maybe, probably less, and but I was really interested in those sort of technologies And then the ones that followed suit with them. So all the wearable tech which wasn't popular then there was no Apple Watch, but I thought the wearable tech was going to be big. Then A lot of the chip companies like NVIDIA, which is blowing up now. These are companies that I was kind of picking at in high school or telling my dad to get, so I was also in that. So, to answer your question, it was like, yeah, this is great, i respect it, but at the same time like, oh, that's just Shaun, he's just like into all these different ways to make money. 

I guess he's always trying to find ways to make money. That is awesome. 

0:19:25 - Mark

So have you ever worked for anyone? Or is it just entrepreneur? company after company after company. 

0:19:32 - Shaun

Company after company after company, except one period of time where I think it was like sophomore year of high school, i have my landscape company, but I was also interning at my uncle and my dad's company, finpay because they needed help, as it was like there was like five of us or six of us there to just get like some startup experience from like a tech startup. So I was like selling. It was a company that sells to provide behavioral health care providers transparent payment systems to collect money from patients prior to care rather than waiting traditionally like 90 days after. It's cool, really cool company And it's gone from those five, six people to now they have like 80 people. 

Oh my God, So it was a great experience, but that's the only time where I technically work for somebody else And it was like two months. 

0:20:26 - Stacey

So from high school you finally got your, got your diploma, and then you went to Penn State right. 

0:20:33 - Shaun

State. 

0:20:34 - Stacey

So tell me about like that decision, because you probably were like, do I really want to go to college? or you know what? did you feel pressure to go? Were you glad that you went, at least for the time you went, like what, what happened? What went through your head? 

0:20:46 - Shaun

So I did not want to go at all, right, and my parents just really, really pushed me to go and everybody's going, so also like just culture as general pushed me to go And for whatever reason I was weak to not just like fight, fight it. 

0:21:00 - Stacey

Then You're 18. 

0:21:02 - Shaun

Yeah, But I knew I was like I should have go even to the point where in Penn State the only school I applied to because I was like screw this application process Didn't do any of the SAT prep or anything like that, and I got into Penn State like really early for some reason Great school Yeah, main campus. 

And before everybody else who applied I was like, ok, well, i guess I'll just go here. And one of my best friends, jack, was going there too. But the week of initiation I told Jack that like he was all excited, you know what are we going to do? What are these fraternities we're going to join and all these things? And I'm like, yeah, this all sounds fun. But, jack, i'm I'm be honest with you, i'm not making it past your year, i will not be here past your year And I bet he still remember me telling him that. But I remember vividly and that's what happened. 

0:21:49 - Stacey

Well, but so why even stay that long? 

0:21:53 - Shaun

Yeah, I got caught in it. Yeah, I got caught in the scenes. I mean, you go to college and it's this like fantasy land, this bubble that surrounds you in its bubbles filled with candy and fun, but the candy is more like booze and whatever you want. So I definitely got caught in the bubble and then Going into my junior year, so some are going into my junior year. I was on a skateboard on my way to your house. 

0:22:24 - Stacey

Yeah, i was on your leaving our house, i left your house and that was on my way to mass. Yeah, yeah, awful. 

0:22:29 - Shaun

But so I was left to your house. then got back home shower, was on my way to mass, was on this electric skateboard really cool board And I was. you know it was a one way street, everybody else had stop signs and this lady must just not saw me and was going across the street and just boom, hit me and like ran over my leg and everything and ended up, you know, first thing, lying on the ground there, wiggle my toes. I'm like OK, i'm not paralyzed. I feel my head in a way, like I'm like OK, my head doesn't hurt. So I'm good, like my head and I can move my toes. I'm not paralyzed. 

0:23:05 - Stacey

Did you remember the impact of it, like do you remember anything? or were you kind of, did you black out, like it's a really weird feeling. 

0:23:14 - Shaun

It was like you. It's a bizarre feeling because you're going and then all of a sudden, there's a moment of time where you're like I have Zero control. What happens next? where you're used to having control and all actions, so I zero control. What happens next? and the outcome of that zero control is like life or death. Cuz I could easily just been yeah. 

Pancaked and then it was just a feeling of like. It was more of a feeling than it was a Site or memory like a site, memory of just like being trapped, like I'm like stuck in This thing and then, you know, i open my eyes and I'm on the ground and that's when I wiggle my toes, so it's more feeling like. I'll never forget the feeling, but it was probably Like it woke me, the frick up. 

0:24:01 - Mark

Wow, because I was like life. 

0:24:04 - Shaun

You're sure like this Yeah, short, and I had all these dreams Not just dreams, but all these desires like the world wasn't the way I wanted it to be, where I thought the world could be better and I was. I'm not waiting any longer. It's time, like I'm going, it is time to start building, to start making change. So I dropped out right there really yeah. 

0:24:26 - Stacey

So that was right after you recovered, because I know you were out of commission for a minute. I remember when we got the call and we were in my, in our house, and you felt like you had just left, but the boys were crying that you know. They were so upset. 

0:24:39 - Shaun

It was Zack and Hirschman and Hirschman and Fio and Fio, and They were so shaken and we were also shaken and I guess you called Hirschman to let him know you were alive or someone called, i think the one of the bystanders Yeah, called Hirsch, because my parents were in mass So they didn't answer and I was lying there and they want to let me move because they thought I broke my neck. So if I move like I get worse, which was so annoying because the pavement was burning hot. My back was completely ripped open. 

It was sitting there in the pavement, but they won't let me move, so they called I was like call Hirsch, because that he's very reliable. 

0:25:14 - Stacey

Yeah, he's very responsible. So, then when did you make that decision? like, did you go home or was it like right there? 

0:25:25 - Shaun

It was. I went back to school for that semester because this was like the week before school started. So I went back to school for that semester and Right away I was like I'm not finishing, i'm gonna finish this semester and then I'm out. So and I'll never forget the day where I told the you know, walk into whatever Department. And I'm like I'm out. And they're like are you sure you don't want like a leave of absence, take a little six month break? And I'm like, no, i'm out. Like right me off, i'm out. And it was a beautiful sunny day. I walk out of that building. 

0:26:00 - Stacey

I'm free. 

0:26:01 - Shaun

It's a rest of my life. Now like it's time, like no more of Huge. What you got to do It's the rest of my life. It's on me to make it happen. 

0:26:10 - Mark

So you said something pretty heady, I guess or heavy is probably a better way to put it something about. You made the decision because there were changes you need to make in the world. What explain that? 

0:26:23 - Shaun

Yes, so a lot of different changes in the world you could see around this time and still now culture just seems to be going in the wrong direction, where Everything is about materials, this, that, this, these, all things, and everything's about building like our own synthetic versions, and we call that innovation. But if you look out into the world today, versus 500 years ago, it was a much more beautiful world. There wasn't all this obstacles and pollution and negative things. So I think we've gone down this route of Innovation that has also Actually had a negative effect in many aspects. So one that and part of that is like changing culture. But we saw those material things like. 

If you're a philosopher in the 1900s or 1800s, you probably could predict that if everything's built upon materials and fake shit, all of a sudden, like, the human experience is going to become more artificial, relationships are going to become more artificial and things that are once precious are going to become more artificial and it's going to decay Humanity. So it's led to this cultural decay, in my opinion as well. Where it's filled with, you know, just, we're angry at each other, we're separate, we're. You know, even in the zoom area It's harder to even go in person, like all these things. So those are some of the things I want to change. Then, beyond that, i was very passionate about autonomous vehicles because I got hit by a car. 

Yeah, was also in another car accident in high school and my grandfather died in a car accident, so I was in a was a fan of Tesla, so very into the autonomous vehicles because I thought I could save a lot of lives. So it's this weird blend of like. I'm obsessed with technology and innovation But, at the same time, not all innovation is good innovation. So I just wanted to Be able to make a change and make a difference, both from a cultural level and an innovating level. 

0:28:32 - Mark

What does that look like, though, from a cultural level? What? what can you, what can I, what can Stacy do To have that impact that you're talking about? 

0:28:39 - Shaun

so at an individual level, there's a micro on the macro. At the micro level, it's the family values. So Creating your own family, your own tribe, and making that tribe sustainable, supporting each other unconditionally not with Transaction, hey, you know you do this, i give you dollars, you give me that type thing where but to try to support each other in that family values, love Your neighbor as thyself and just spread love at the micro level. At the macro level, it's a different picture because we're fighting a different war And it's more about getting all these micros to live those family values. So for us and this is part of what I'm doing at upspace We are. 

You know, there's a lot of Incredible people out there in the world. There's thousands amongst thousands, great people who are all Making those inspiring changes at the micro and mini macro levels. Meaning like people have followings online who are sharing great messages, etc. But they're all Separated, you know, they're all kind of doing their own thing and some have batches together. So what we're trying to do at upspace is build the army, because alone you can do a little, but together you can do a lot. In culture, follows the waves of people, they will. You know, if ten people go that way, i might go this way, but most people are gonna follow. 

Most people follow most people. So We're building an army that can deploy their messaging, who have this massive audience, bringing all these great people together into that army and then going and attacking it together to spread these good messages. Because I do believe at the individual level, at our core right, we fight over all these Differences in opinions, we fight over all these you know and we bring into you know, race, gender, abortion, whatever all these little things, but deep down were so similar and we all want love and we all want to care for each other. So by spreading that message and getting people to follow people, i think there's way more people that want that than not. It's just that you know in part some of the innovation, like in media and In politics, the way to control is through fear. 

So they spread all this fear out into the world and they've developed this mass Ecosystem on the main mainstream media that all share the same message about fear and You're gonna die if you don't do this and all this like you watch the news for an hour. There's not one positive thing that they share. So we're trying to be the counter of that, where we bring this army together to spread hope, to spread love and we think we can Change things it's funny because I feel like we're on a parallel path. 

0:31:23 - Mark

I was thinking about this. 

0:31:24 - Stacey

You and Shaun. 

0:31:26 - Mark

No gurus and game changers and upspace okay, because it's the same concept. Yeah, we know that there's this positive in every person, right? this? this guru, this game changer, based on their experiences, based on their expertise, based on whatever, but they have no platform. Many people have no platform. 

So, we try to be the platform to pull these individual people together to benefit the people who are watching and listening to us. It's the same concept You're trying to take these creators Right and pull them together so you can create a force for good, exactly, we're sort of in a parallel multiverse. 

0:31:58 - Shaun

Absolutely So you're. You're platforming, giving the individual the platform, and then we're taking those individuals and bringing them together. Yeah, because, as I said, to people follow most people and if they have together It's very hard to fight these massive institutions. Massive. You know the evil, but if you bring this army together, that's the biggest threat to evil. And biggest threat to corruption is community Wow the biggest. 

0:32:23 - Stacey

Well, i love that and I think too, like upspace. So, just to reel it back a little bit so you had ziggs, you sold ziggs in 2021, and then how did up of space happen? because I think there was another company name before that one. 

0:32:36 - Shaun

Yeah, I was originally called up swing fitness up same same company. 

0:32:39 - Stacey

Okay. 

0:32:41 - Shaun

Yes, so how that happened. It's a Interesting story because like there was this like parallel right things going on. Yeah, that then came together and then upspace was born, so very kind of cool. 

It feels almost like everything, like I didn't know if I believe in destiny or not, but this story, with upspace that's evolving as we speak, feels like destiny, like things are just aligning, which gives us so much confidence in this, because all these weird things happen. So it started, though, really when COVID hit. When COVID hit and you know, i was already dropped out of school, so my life personally didn't change that much And I was outdoors doing my company, the landscape at the time, but I saw everything else change for everybody else, and all of a sudden, health and wellness became really political And also all these other issues started to rise up. Right, and the people speaking out against it even doctors, scientists, whoever it might be speaking up against it was being canceled on social media. I knew doctors personally that wouldn't even text me their advice because they're like I fear losing my license or all this sort of stuff. It was like cancel, culture was crazy. 

So I started to create this company called TOS, which stands for TOS the other side, and the other side was originally a media, so it was a podcast where I was gonna bring two people who had two different asides to a story and have a conversation Like, for example, the vaccine. You think we should get the vaccine, you don't. What's the intention? The intention is we wanna keep people happy and healthy. How do we solve this problem? 

0:34:19 - Mark

How do we? 

0:34:19 - Shaun

work together, how do we work together? And then, beyond that, it was to build a platform, so a tech platform that empowered the writers and journalists to be able to share their message online without censorship and make money doing it. So, simultaneously, about the Parallel Path, my now partner and co-founder, chris he went COVID, he was a personal trainer. He was type one diabetic, got really into health, then got a personal training certificate. Ironically, i was one of the first clients, like 10 years back. He told me everything. I knew that he was a little older than me And then during COVID, hit a lot of his clients. 

They had all to go home And they all wanted to just stay in community and also find ways to stay healthy. So he put together this program on using Google Sheets, slack for messaging, venmo for payments all these different tools Obviously very tedious for him. So he started looking just for other ways to do it, other softwares that maybe put it together, and there was nothing. Nothing brought community together around Health-O-Montus. There were platforms that brought coach to consumer, one-on-one and tracked it, but nothing was community to Health-O-Montus. So Chris started looking into building this. He reached out to me because in college I had a custom t-shirt business and he was like hey can we? 

0:35:37 - Stacey

I forgot about the custom t-shirt. I ordered a bunch of those too. Yeah, fresh, fresh, fresh. 

0:35:41 - Shaun

So he reached out to me because he was like, hey, can you make some t-shirts for me? I'm like, chris, i'm out of school, that was for the fraternities and like just to make money because I was bored up at school. But tell me about this business. And he started telling me about this business and immediately hit for me because I'm trying to give a platform for people who are being canceled. He's giving a platform, people sharing great messages around health and wellness and trying to help people, And the thing that was being canceled at this time because of COVID was a lot of Health-O-Montus stuff. So it was just a beautiful blend And immediately it clicked, we started getting together. We were like let's freaking build this thing, and then we just went all in. 

0:36:19 - Stacey

That's amazing, that's amazing. 

0:36:23 - Mark

I want to change gears. 

0:36:24 - Stacey

Yeah, go for it. 

0:36:26 - Mark

I can't get the words out. The way you think, right, certainly at a young age and it has stayed true, right, you think at a different level. That's the vibe I'm getting. You've always thought at a different level and a different plane than your peers. Okay, even how old are you now? 24. So even for a 24 year old, right, not only is it a function of your experience, having done everything you've done, but even if you didn't have that experience, you'd still be thinking up here broader, right, more macro. How can you get? what advice would you give to others your age or the eighth grader to get them to think bigger and broader? 

0:37:11 - Shaun

The number one thing I would say is don't be open-minded, don't be closed-minded, be ridiculously curious. So always ask why. Ask why about your own opinions, ask why about everybody else's opinions. Ask why do we use these cameras instead of an iPhone? Ask why do we use that light, and you'll start to find these answers. Ask why about everything. Not for the intention of trying to prove people wrong and prove yourself right, but for the tension of finding the truth. And that's what I would say, because when you have that relentless curiosity, the opportunities become limitless and you start to learn at a rate beyond anybody. Not because you're smarter I don't see myself as smarter than anybody I'm just relentlessly curious And the more rabbit holes of curiosity that I go down, it separates me beyond, because most people get caught right here. So that would be the advice Just ask why Be relentlessly curious. 

0:38:12 - Stacey

But how do you stop that process? right, like I relate to you when you say I want my brain to just stop, because my brain goes and goes and goes and goes And I'm like I just want some peace, i just wanna like chill and not think about the lights and not think about the camera and not think about you know what I mean. I think it's important to do that. But then how do you ever relax, like, because I personally have a lot of trouble with that And I know people kind of like us and you're probably the same way, mark Just like we're always kind of trying to think what's the next thing, what am I gonna do now? How's this gonna work? You know? 

0:38:43 - Shaun

where does it stop? Yeah, so a few things on that. So one don't feel like you need to stop that just because the world says you have to stop that. You know the world says you can't do this, you can't do that, or you have to be this way or that way. You need a break and you need balance. You need that. But the reason we get in those rabbit holes of asking why or why is the camera do this, why does that do that, why does this do that? It's usually because that's what energizes us. So the irony is, by stopping that, you're actually crushing your energy And everything's energy. It's an energy exchange. So I would lean in and lean on the things that give you energy. Now to your point. Like there might be periods of time you're trying to sleep or you're trying to relax. 

0:39:25 - Stacey

Right, that's the thing I don't really sleep. I'm up at three o'clock in the morning. I'm like worrying about this, fixing that, doing that, yeah, keep going. sorry, so with those things. 

0:39:33 - Shaun

I think it's really important. There's two things with that. One understand what is your why in deep down. Am I doing this for the money? Am I doing this because I love it? Am I doing this because I'm trying to make change? And what is your why? And just trust and give hope to that why. Because if you trust yourself and trust your why and trust the actions that you're doing, you don't need to fear or be in anxiety about these things, because you usually have to absolutely trust. So when you're trying to sleep you don't have this anxiousness or this fear of like oh my God, what about overthinking things in the sense that if you don't think about it it's not gonna happen, or something, because the truth is you think about it, it's not gonna make any change. But you get in sleep, we'll make change the next day. So just trusting yourself, your abilities and your why, like why you're doing that is very important. 

Now, a little tool to get better at that and get a little bit more introspective I think that I do at least. That I think society and humanity has lost touch on is silence and meditation and self reflection. Back in the day happens all the time. You're out in the wilderness, you're hunting and you're waiting there for hours, or you're in the garden and you're doing agriculture just you in the garden and you can be very introspective. Now we live in an age where, in constant stimulus, with not just our phones but also just lights. Lights are everywhere noises, cars, trains, airplanes, music. I love music and music can be used as a tool too, but there's just a lot of stimulus. 

0:41:14 - Mark

So you have to really. 

0:41:16 - Shaun

Netflix distractions, yeah, whatever it might be. So you have to really just take yourself back intentionally because it doesn't happen as natural in the natural environment where it used to and meditate And I do a lot of breath work, so guide and meditations with breath work, it's called theta breath work It's one of my favorite things in the world. But really forcing yourself to do that, because then you can get in touch with yourself, in touch with your gut, and when you can do that, you can trust yourself and you have hope in the future, and then you don't live in the state of fear as much. 

0:41:51 - Mark

Wow, that's good stuff. What kind of conversations do you have with yourself every day so you can win that day? 

0:42:00 - Shaun

I don't really think about things from winning a day to day. I more think of it might be my best self and am I working towards this vision. So I try to zoom out a lot. So in the conversations that I have with myself I would say two things in the micro in the day it's a lot of conversations of maybe me talking on this podcast before I talk on this podcast, not necessarily writing down on the computer, but having these conversations in my brain what is going to happen? Or if I have a big pitch to investors, i'm having that conversation before I have the pitch. Or even little things. If I'm talking to a stranger in the coffee shop, like, i'm having a conversation in my brain around that. So I'm just talking to myself. But beyond that, where I really live in my flow state, i try to live in the unknown. So, which tends to be very scary for a lot of people. 

But you kind of have two realms. You have the known and the unknown realm. I'll use airplanes, for example, or flying, for example. So back before we invented flight, there was just this realm of unknown. How can we fly? Can we fly? even I mean, we birds? can we know that? but can we fly? And so most of it was the unknown. And the best innovation comes from the unknown, when you just have to discover how to do it. So we ended up discovering airplanes, and then that became the known thing. And when that becomes the known thing, most people have comfort in the known. So you're like okay, we know airplanes can fly. How do we optimize the airplane? Make it faster, make it more safe, make it bigger so it can hold more things? And these are all just known, and you're optimizing the known. 

To challenge myself, and where I really get in flow is I like to live in the unknown, where it's like well, what if we go back to the unknown when we didn't know how to fly? What if there's, hypothetically, 10 other ways to fly that we just haven't discovered that are unknown? What are those ways? Where do we see it in the universe? Where do we? how could it be better? How does it make sense? What is the logic behind it? And then you can find the science and data behind it. So I try to live in the unknown one, just because it energizes me. A lot. 

0:44:15 - Stacey

I can tell yeah. 

0:44:16 - Shaun

It's like a fun exercise. But those are a lot of the conversations that I have with myself. But with upspace it's more around culture, like why do we live in this cultural state? So it doesn't always have to be a physical innovation, like it could be culture innovation, it could be religious innovation, it could be bodily innovation. 

There's so many different forms And so many forms of unknown. So, like, what if there's our brains? What if we could communicate Telepathically? Telepathically Just by why do we have eyes? What if there's some method of communication, touch, sound, the frequencies, like these are unknowns that maybe was known before in history and we've lost touch on it because it's very easy to do that. But what if there is something beyond that? What if there is a connection between conscious and subconscious that we've lost touch on? And because we've lost touch on it, we're just building all these artificial things to solve the subconscious problems. Right, the mental illnesses, the physical illnesses as well. We're solving having all these synthetic things because we've lost touch of conscious and subconscious. But what if there is still ability to? 

0:45:27 - Stacey

do that. Damn, that's cool, that's cool Stuff like that. 

0:45:30 - Shaun

So I really like to live in the unknown. 

0:45:31 - Stacey

How much of that, how much of nutrition and fitness and lifestyle impacts any of that Cause I think it's really important. I know you guys do too. 

0:45:43 - Shaun

So what I'll say about fitness, nutrition, lifestyle and impacting that is, it just makes it easier to get to those states, in my opinion. 

Because, otherwise you have a lot of distraction, like you have bodily distraction and mental distraction and fatigue. So like when you eat poor, you might not recognize it, but you're gonna have a glucose spike right. So you eat a bunch of sugar, like fake sugar. You'll have a glucose spice and then a glucose crash and then a craving. That's just distraction. So it's harder to get into these flow states where you can really tap in. 

And then, likewise, if you think of our bodies, we're literally 70% made of water and require a ridiculous amount of oxygen. Every process in the body requires oxygen. If you suppress it from oxygen, we die. It's like the one thing. If you suppress it from the oxygen, we die. Oxygen and water which water has oxygen as well. So all those different things. 

It's really about getting more of that and more circulation of that so you can get more in touch. So, for example, exercise you might train for something and you got to like work out this way or that way to train for that particular thing. But if you're just trying to be healthy, it's more about Getting water in. So you have water which 70% of body and oxygen in, because you have breathe heavier And then your heart pumps it in the blood around the body so that the rest your body and your brain Gets the oxygen and water that it needs. So it's really as simple as that. And then not putting synthetic things your body so that you don't get blocked by the fake world because we're trying to go So conscious. Okay, so we want nature. So that's how I look at it, like those you can just block yourself. 

0:47:18 - Stacey

It's not like lose weight, or to like beef up, or to like not have a thigh gap like you. Which, you know, i think about. You know, it's about really just being your best sort of self, like in every way, and that includes human powers being healthy. Yeah, yeah, that's really cool. 

0:47:35 - Shaun

Well, it's more about I think we're natural beings and these things are just making my life worse In every aspect. Because I can connect those dots. A lot of people just don't connect them, and it's hard because society doesn't connect them as a whole, so you have to do it individually. And then it's. I truly want to just unlock some sort of human abilities with my brain and tap into my subconscious, because I think that would really unlock a lot for me in the world. So that's kind of how I see it. Why it's not about? 

0:48:00 - Stacey

is it possible to be successful and not physically fit, like to be like a Cookin addict or alcoholic or you know. Have like really Things that are going on in your body, healthy success. 

0:48:12 - Shaun

Well, you tell me. So if it's material success, like if the success is make a lot of money, of course We see celebrities, we see some. 

CEOs do it. Some people are fat as could be, do it and they're making a lot of money. But I don't define success by money. I think I'm gonna make a shit ton just by what I do, but I don't even care. The success to me is just life itself and recognizing Disappreciation for that life. And if you are at that state you would treat that life very well. So by taking drugs and alcohol and food or whatever, you're clearly running from something or trying to get that easy to open you to try to do these things Because you're not successful in the state that you're in, because otherwise you just want to do those things. So it's not a matter of like you have to do these things to be successful. It's more like if you're not doing the things, that tends to be a sign That's a part of your life that isn't successful. 

0:49:09 - Stacey

That's hurting because otherwise you wouldn't destroy the most precious thing, wow which is life interesting, just reeling it back, and I don't know if you have more stuff but um, up space. Let's get back to up space, because I know you want to get it out in the world And we want to help you. That's something that we really feel passionate about here. So you're calling it the Spotify for health and wellness. What? what do you mean by that? 

0:49:33 - Shaun

So I'll put it this way when you think of music, what platform do you think of? Spotify? when you think of movies, what platform do you think of? 

0:49:41 - Stacey

Netflix probably, or yeah? 

0:49:43 - Shaun

when you think of online shopping, what platform do you think of? Amazon, amazon. When you think of health and wellness, what platform do you think of? 

0:49:53 - Mark

It's just open space for someone to claim. 

0:49:55 - Stacey

There you go. 

0:49:56 - Shaun

So whenever I ask that question, most people freeze. They have no answer. They'll say a different thing. Everyone says a different thing. So maybe we even be like Pfizer. You know, it's like this weird pharmaceutical company right Yeah, because it's health. 

Yeah, i think it's fake health, but it can be considered health. So when you think of health and wellness, you think of up space and how it relates to Spotify. When you look at Spotify, netflix and Amazon, they didn't. For example, spotify didn't create the music themselves. They gave the platform for the artists and musicians They created created it make it so easy to get it to their their people, to listen. 

Netflix didn't create the movies themselves. Originally, they gave a platform for the producers to put their movies and they made it really easy for the people to watch the movies. Similarly, up space, we're not creating the solutions or the workouts, meditation's, recipes, guides, whatever might be. We're giving a platform for the health and wellness leaders whether it's a trainer, nutritionist, doctor, whoever might be to give those resources to the people and then the people can easily find and discover and follow along very easily. 

0:51:06 - Stacey

So it's an app that you can download, mm-hmm. Yes, how does it work? 

0:51:10 - Shaun

So how it works is and there's different phases of how it will work, but right now how it works is a creator, health and wellness creator can go on there and create their own up space. And what it up space is it include. We looked at all the use cases of all these different types of creators trainers, nutritionist, etc. You look at their websites. All they have is you know about page, what are they offerings? page to like products, programs, whatever might be. Community page so whether that leads to like a Facebook group or some other community or Whatever that community might be. And then an events page often times events here. So when you have an up space you click a button, creates your up space, gives you about it, gives you community group chat feed right there. It gives you programs to build a crate, programs and your products and your offerings. An events page so you can list events. So that's what up space is for the creator, then for People to use. They can go on there, whether a crater invites you in and you just go directly into that. 

Creators up space. Or you could browse the marketplace of all the different creators, because everybody's gonna want Something new. They. You might have one goal, you might have another, i might have another, and we might have multiple goals. Right one to get more in touch with your mind. The meditation one to you know make your thighs. 

0:52:21 - Stacey

Whatever might be, so I'm looking for Reiki specials right now. 

0:52:24 - Shaun

That's why I'm a Reiki Reiki. 

0:52:26 - Stacey

You know the energy like energy massage. 

0:52:29 - Shaun

Yeah, like a Reiki master. I'm looking for one of those, so maybe we'll have some of those. 

0:52:32 - Mark

Yeah, if you can house some, that'd be great. Thank you So, but it'll be a place for personal quest, yeah so. I'm gonna take it. 

0:52:39 - Shaun

So you'll be able to find it just because we'll have this marketplace of all the different creators. Find anything that you want, that You need, right on there from the creator. 

0:52:46 - Stacey

That's fantastic. That's awesome. What else do you have, mark, because I'm getting into lightning round now. I have what I think is a good lightning round. Go, go, start with that. So let's do it. 

0:52:55 - Mark

You're familiar with. We're all familiar with who wants to be a millionaire. Right That phone a friend. What topic unrelated to what you have talked about? what your friend phone you for, Something you know more about than most people? 

0:53:20 - Shaun

Well, i'm definitely a generalist, so you call him for anything. 

0:53:24 - Stacey

I call them, i Call. 

0:53:26 - Shaun

I call Shaun, so like versus like. I'm not a specialist like Eric, specialist of his craft, master of his craft, very good with the videos, with the cameras. I'm more a generalist in the sense that I could play with the videos, i can learn the videos So I can speak the language, but I can also understand the mics, i understand how to be the podcaster, so I could do like a little bit of a lot of things. So it probably be the the general question around like How do I make a million dollars in a year? 

0:54:04 - Mark

Okay, and then I would come up with some plan to make it versus a specific like how do you make a camera Right? build a camera to sell it like Russian literature. 

0:54:13 - Stacey

I can't tell you, but I can show you somebody again right Business, more business questions probably, i would imagine. Right, yeah, inspirational business questions. 

0:54:21 - Shaun

Yeah, for sure. 

0:54:22 - Stacey

For sure, And you just moved right. just tell us a little bit about that. What made you move to California? 

0:54:27 - Shaun

so in Philly I Felt like you know I like playing soccer and Philly I'm playing soccer, but most people in Philly like playing basketball. When I'm Palo Alto, everybody's playing soccer. Not that basketball or soccer is good or bad, one's better than the other. It's just different. So I just wanted to be around more people playing Playing soccer so I could learn from them, share resources with them, share tricks with them. And in my world that's a lot of engineers, a lot of other founders, building and consumer tech We're just tech in general and then a lot of venture capitalists. 

0:55:02 - Stacey

Yeah, i mean where you moved also happens to be like the hotbed for now. Why don't you like the word entrepreneur? I? 

0:55:08 - Shaun

Think it's overused and over celebrated Because not all entrepreneurs are good So they shouldn't all be celebrated. A lot of entrepreneurs will just kind of build to like, exploit or whatever might be, so it's just overused. 

0:55:23 - Stacey

What would you call yourself if you're not an entrepreneur? 

0:55:28 - Shaun

A builder a curious person. 

No, it's not business to me. Like, business is just the vehicle in which I do it. But to me it's really about and I think that's what the origin of the entrepreneur is Wasn't about the business, it was more about there's this problem in the world and we want to fix it. I'm going to do anything in my power to fix it. Now, business tends to be that vehicle that we fix it, but there's a lot of other vehicles that you could. It's just we call that thing a vehicle of business because of the economic structure that we live in today. You need the money, which is just a tool, so that you can deploy that tool to get more tools or talent or whatever it might be. So I think entrepreneurs become very business focused, but the truth of it, like the true entrepreneurs, like the Steve Jobs, the Albert Einstein's, the Nikola Tesla's, those type of people in the world It wasn't about the money and the fame, it was about the problem and the solution. And that's why I don't like the word, because it's going around. 

What's the biggest site hustle. 

0:56:28 - Mark

I could do, or whatever, this or that. 

0:56:30 - Shaun

It's like okay, great, but like, what are you doing for the world? already Nothing, you're making money. I don't disrespect, i don't think that's bad, necessarily But it's not at the level of Nikola Tesla. We were trying to make energy accessible as well. 

0:56:44 - Stacey

Right, right, or Benjamin Franklin, yeah. So who's that person now that you know of Like maybe we don't even know who that person is like that you've found and uncovered? There's going to be the next Elon Musk or the next Steve Jobs, or is it you? 

0:56:59 - Shaun

I'll be my own, my own path. I'll definitely be different, but to me There's one person who's already starting to make it like pretty high up, but Ivan Zhao is the CEO of Notion, and Notion is like this productivity tool, but he has much grander dreams. It's a $12 billion company, so it's pretty big right now. But I saw him in SF at some convention or whatever, at some talk and I could tell Right Like you can just tell Yeah. He will go on to do some continuously great things beyond. 

0:57:38 - Stacey

Any women. 

0:57:40 - Shaun

Yeah, i'm sure there's plenty of women women out there. My mom already says they say that word wrong. 

0:57:47 - Stacey

I mean, you're probably more like in tune with men because you are one. Yeah, no, for sure Like thinking and like trying to emulate. Yeah, I just really. 

0:57:54 - Shaun

I relate to and I have five brothers. 

0:57:56 - Stacey

Right A lot of male energy, which is fine. 

0:57:59 - Shaun

Men more than than women, just because we are different, if people can deny it. But now we are. 

0:58:04 - Stacey

I relate a little bit more to men. 

0:58:06 - Shaun

So I think like a lot of my social feed is just more men, yeah, but there's definitely some incredible woman out there doing incredible things And it's not just like in people in general, not just doing things in business. There's people who are inspiring the world through family, who are building one Like I look at my mom and she's a freaking superhero over any. 

I don't care what CEO, boss, guy or girl. I look at my mom like that person is a way more important to humanity than you And you have a 50 billion dollar company who gives a shit. You're going to die and nobody's going to remember you. That's building legacy right there That's going to last and spread ripples throughout the world, and that's all the mothers out there yourself as well. 

I look at you and look at Zach and Sammy as more impressive that I would look at mainline studios. or Koi fly Right. And same thing with fathers as well. 

0:58:55 - Mark

Like I look at my dad, he's got a business. 

0:58:57 - Shaun

I'm like great, who gives a shit about the business? You're going to die and you'll be forgotten, and so your business, and so your business partners will forget you too, but your kids and their kids, that'll last And it's the coolest creation of all time Legacy Yeah. 

0:59:11 - Stacey

So I think, I think, That's awesome, all right. I love that OK, lightning Brown. What's one thing that no one knows about you, that you want to break here on this podcast. 

0:59:24 - Shaun

I don't think people recognize, like how deep this is to me, like I think a lot of people think this is about business, this is about, maybe, money, or this is about, like they see an app that I'm building, but what I'm really doing is calling myself a teacher. And I'm like, ok, i'm going to call myself a teacher. They see an app that I'm building, but what I'm really doing is cultural innovation, where we're going to completely change culture for centuries to come. And I don't think a lot of people know that's my intention and that's my goal. They just see, oh, he's building a business, he's getting this experience, he's raising money, like good for him. You know, he's building technology, cool. And then they're going to start to see some success, like, oh, it's a good business, like, look at him, he's making money, he's making net worth and all these like fake shit things, these material things, and they might think that's my intention, but truthfully, i don't give a shit about any of that. 

1:00:27 - Mark

I don't care at all. I think you've done a good job of expressing that, though here for sure, So we can hopefully get that message out for you. 

1:00:35 - Stacey

Yeah, do you have a favorite quote? 

1:00:37 - Shaun

I do. 

1:00:38 - Stacey

What is it? I knew you would. I have a few. OK, let's hear a couple. You want to hear a couple? Sure. 

1:00:42 - Shaun

So the one quote is let me think about it for a sec And I'll paraphrase it because I might not get it perfectly right. 

But the second you look, this is by Steve Jobs, who's like one of my favorite people. The second, you look out into the world. You look out into life and recognize that all the things that you see in life were created by people no greater than you. You can change things, You can influence it And you can make things that other people will use. And that was by Steve Jobs, not really. 

I heard that years ago and I share that with people all the time, but it just makes you look like, oh, i could build that camera. Oh, jeff Bezos, ceo of Amazon legend, i could do that. Elon Musk builds Tesla, spacex and rockets. I could do that. Nikola Tesla was discovering electricity and energy potentially, so we hear that could reach the masses affordably or for free. I could do that. So you start to look at all these great people you look up to. Whatever your goals are, you can do that too, and that's where you start reaching And that's where your actions start going towards. So that quote is powerful. That's cool. 

And the last quote, which has always been one of my favorite, is love is the one thing that we can perceive, that can transcend through space and time, and that's from the movie Interstellar. So if you think space, you know you got space and you got time, the dimension that we live in. So there's two different dimensions. I'm out in California but I still feel the love of my family And they probably still feel my love. Or a loved one dies, your mom dies, your dad dies, someone dies, and you still feel that love And you're transcending through time. As time goes by. It could be 30 years. You know, like my grandmother, who was over my mom, her, my grandfather, her husband died 10 plus years ago And you can see the love 10 years of time. It's beautiful And he hasn't been here. So it's not like it's. It's growing with time. He's not here, it's transcend through it. So love is one thing that we can perceive, that transcend. 

1:03:02 - Stacey

I love that. I love that thing about love. 

1:03:05 - Shaun

Yeah. 

1:03:07 - Stacey

I mean, do you have anything else? Because I want to Shaun to get out all of the ways that people can get in touch with you and they can sign up for UpSpace and give it out, so we can like get it out there for you. 

1:03:19 - Shaun

Follow me on Instagram or connect with me on LinkedIn, but Instagram started to create more content, so that would probably be the best way to get in touch with me. Shaun underscore Ziggler. 

1:03:31 - Stacey

One last thing I gotta ask you Ice baths Do it or don't? 

1:03:34 - Shaun

do it, do it, do it And I really almost bought one this weekend. 

1:03:39 - Stacey

I was with Sammy and I'm like really, the way people talk about it like it's powerful. I don't like it, though I can't imagine jumping in cold water. 

1:03:48 - Mark

Part of that is part of the great things You don't know, but I just literally had a conversation with my son and told him I was buying one. 

1:03:55 - Shaun

Yes, let's go. I love that It's powerful. 

1:03:57 - Mark

It's a mental game. 

1:03:59 - Shaun

Yeah. 

1:04:00 - Mark

What it is to actually get up and get in it. I mean, I know it now. I've taken a cold shower. Like that's a mental game, but this is at a whole new level Dude. 

1:04:06 - Stacey

No, you're plunging yourself in it, Yeah. 

1:04:08 - Shaun

It is a mental game, So you're building that mental resilience and tolerance, but it's also a physiological game. Yeah, There's so many benefits to it that aren't don't have like the harmful symptoms of. I think my post was cold plungers are like Adderall, cocaine and coffee, So it doesn't have those negative effects of that, but it does have the positive ones the dopamine release, serotonin, norepinephrine, GABA. So there's all these different benefits from it too. Plus you're building that mental Yeah. 

1:04:33 - Stacey

That's really that strength. 

1:04:35 - Mark

So cool, I'm just going to step into, so highly recommend that. 

1:04:38 - Stacey

Yeah, and I saw you think about being addicted to something, i think those kind of healthy things, you know. If you're an addictive personality like, why not be addicted to that? Yeah, everyone's addicted. I'm addicted to buddy of my nails, right Yeah? 

1:04:50 - Shaun

Addictions are just human beings are meant to be addicted. Like we are habit forming creatures, right, and some of it's really good. Like we need those habits We do. It makes us allow us to be automatic so that we can still survive and protect ourselves, so, but we can be automatic in the routine things, so might as well make those routine. You only have room for so much addiction, right, because you run out of time. 

1:05:07 - Mark

I think you'll be in a room for so many addictions. Say you have room for 10 addictions. 

1:05:12 - Shaun

Might as well fill those 10 addictions with good things that are going to make you a super human versus right now. a lot of society fills those 10 things with really negative things And then they wonder why they're depressed or having issues. Well, replace the addictions. 

1:05:27 - Stacey

I think people are going to get addicted to you, Shaun enough space And I'm excited about it And thank you so much for coming in talking to us and our little game changer podcast, and a true game changer. I know, and he's just starting, i know That's the crazy part. 

1:05:42 - Mark

I want to see what happens 10 years from now. We'll have to have it back on. Oh, no, 10 years from now. 

1:05:46 - Shaun

We'll come on in 10 years. 

1:05:48 - Mark

Yeah, let's plan that. Thank you, Shaun. 

1:05:50 - Stacey

Thanks, so much Thanks, thank you, thank you Thanks