4 Key Words to Unlock Hard Conversations | Ep 052

Unlock the power of four simple words to transform your toughest conversations! 🗝️💬

➡️  Meet the Guest: Tucker Miller, author of "The First Four Words," to explore her groundbreaking approach to overcoming avoidance and awkwardness in crucial discussions.

Discover:

💫 How to start any conversation with a "minimum viable product" of just 4 words
💫 Why "We need to talk" can be so powerful (when used correctly)
💫 Techniques for reducing tension in high-stakes situations
💫 The "seven seconds of clarity" and how to build conversation courage
💫 What to say and NOT to say when someone is grieving or in pain

Whether it's a difficult work meeting or a heart-to-heart with a loved one, Tucker's method offers a simple yet powerful solution. Learn to turn discomfort into opportunity and master the conversations that matter most.

Ready to revolutionize your communication skills? Hit play now! 🎧

➡️ Chapters
(00:01) - The First Four Words
(06:50) - Starting Conversations With Four Words
(20:00) - Mastering Difficult Conversations With Four Words
(29:12) - Navigating Difficult Conversations With Grace

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Stacey: https://www.instagram.com/staceymgrant/
Mark: https://www.instagram.com/mark_lubragge_onair/

➡️ More about the guest:  
Website: https://www.jtuckermiller.com/
Book: https://www.jtuckermiller.com/the-first-four-words

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➡️ Thanks for watching:
#DifficultConversations, #StartingConversations, #Communication, #PersonalGrowth, #Relationships, #PerformanceIssues, #Leadership, #EmotionalTension, #Neutrality, #OpenMind, #CommonGround, #Confidence, #PublicSpeaking, #Networking, #NonverbalCommunication, #EmotionalBurden, #Awkwardness, #StrategicApproach, #transformativepower 

Transcript

00:01 - Stacey (Host)
So smart. 

00:03 - Mark (Host)
So smart, that's only two words. 

00:05 - Stacey (Host)
Oh. 

00:06 - Mark (Host)
Start over. She is so smart, so smart. That was easy. 

00:09 - Stacey (Host)
She is so smart, four words. 

00:12 - Mark (Host)
To get into any conversation. 

00:15 - Stacey (Host)
Well, the book is the First Four Words A Simple, powerful Solution to Overcoming Avoidance and Awkwardness. And I'm telling you what. Everybody needs this book. 

00:25 - Mark (Host)
Everybody there's not anyone. 

00:27 - Stacey (Host)
Is there anyone that you know that doesn't have a difficult conversation here and there? No, well, no, yeah, all of us are avoiding them because it's uncomfortable, it's so true, right. 

00:35 - Mark (Host)
So think about it. The one thing you need to say to your spouse that you don't say Right, that is like a gold one, or your kids, or something, your mom, because you don't know how to start it, you don't know what to say. This woman helped with this book. Helps you figure out how to start it and what to say. Like what else could you want? 

00:52 - Stacey (Host)
Well, and she does not just for like she does. This is supposed to be a business book. 

00:56 - Mark (Host)
Business book. Yeah, but it is super applicable to everything. So many, yeah, so many different situations. 

01:01 - Stacey (Host)
Like I love learning some stuff about you on this Did I open up? 

01:05 - Mark (Host)
I don't recall. 

01:06 - Stacey (Host)
You talked to somebody about smelling at work. I did yeah. 

01:09 - Mark (Host)
There's a lot of difficult conversations, certainly at work, that you have, but to her point, like these practices, this strategy, I don't know what to call it. There's so many examples she gives of. Here's how you start this conversation. Here's how you start this conversation. Here's how you start that conversation. 

01:23 - Stacey (Host)
I think it's a distraction, right? So you're so worried about the conversation, but you're thinking about okay, what four words am I going to use to get into this conversation? And then it sort of takes you away from the emotionality of right and the awkwardness of having this talk. You're just thinking, okay, what am I? Literally I counted yeah on my fingers like all, like I think I'm like 30 times like, was that four? Where I even corrected her once. 

01:44 - Mark (Host)
I'm like no, that was five words it's sort of like the hidden secret of this is that if you take the time to figure out those four or five, six, whatever four words, it puts you in a different frame of mind for how you approach the conversation, which changes how the person receives the kind like there's a magic behind all of magic, which is so super cool, guys, and she's great. You gotta listen to this one. 

02:01 - Stacey (Host)
It's a fun one we had a lot of fun, which is so super cool Guys you've got to listen to this one. It's a fun one. 

02:04 - Mark (Host)
We had a lot of fun and it is really practical and you can apply it immediately Right now I'm going to go home and say we need to talk to my wife. I'm buying this book. 

02:14 - Stacey (Host)
You're going to say we need to talk. I'm never going to say that to my wife. Do not say that she says that to me and I'm like I got to go. 

02:21 - Mark (Host)
Those are my four words. 

02:22 - Stacey (Host)
I want to listen to you now. How about this? You are beautiful, Karen. 

02:28 - Mark (Host)
That's what I should say. I'm going to say that I'm going to text her Every day. You should tell her that You're going to enjoy this one. Tucker Miller. 

02:37 - Stacey (Host)
Hi, I'm Stacey. 

02:38 - Mark (Host)
And I am Mark, and this is the Gurus at Game Changers podcast. Hey, welcome everybody. So let me ask you a question what conversations are you not having? Because you just don't know how to start them and you don't know what to say. Maybe you have to give some tough love to a family member, maybe you're at a networking event and you did not engage with anyone, or some criticism, maybe to a coworker and you just avoid it. We all do it. There are countless situations where we need to speak up, but we just don't know how to. Fortunately, today's guest, tucker Miller, does. In fact, she wrote the book on how to get out of your head and into these conversations and through these conversations, positively, painlessly and, believe it or not, in most situations. She believes that you can accomplish this with just four carefully chosen words. Tucker, I have four words for you. Welcome to the show. 

03:34 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
Oh, thank you very much. 

03:36 - Stacey (Host)
Well done, nice to be here, tucker like I am especially excited to have you here because this is something I struggle with did. Did you know that I've always struggled with this? People think I'm an extrovert. People think that I have no trouble reaching out and saying things to people when it comes to difficult conversations, like I'm always finding myself. 

03:54 - Mark (Host)
I know I think that makes you human right. Yeah, so many people that are very effusive still have trouble with that tough conversation. 

04:00 - Stacey (Host)
It's tough especially when you're trying to be liked. You know when you're a person who wants to be liked, so you wrote the book, though right the first four words. It's a simple, powerful solution to overcoming avoidance and awkwardness. So tell me, why did you write this book? First of all, like which? 

04:16 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
is the problem solved here? It doesn't have to be perfect. So I want your audience to understand there's no perfect conversation, but the ones that fail most often are the ones that are just never had never started. And so I am an executive coach and I work with top level leaders in all kinds of organizations well educated, very influential and in the work that I did with them, so often we'd come down to a problem that they were having, usually with somebody a performance issue, an expectation, something going on and they'd have a problem and we'd start to talk about a solution, which usually involved a conversation that they weren't having. So, in exploring the conversation that they might have, should have agreed that would be helpful if they would have. They kept not having it, and when I asked them why, why, why are you not having it? You said it would be a good idea. You agreed you were going to commit to it. Why didn't you have it? 

05:28
And I heard repeatedly one phrase that was just making me nuts, and it was. I didn't know what to say. And you look at these people, you are, you know, a captain of industry here, a PhD, and you didn't know what to say. And really what they were saying is not that they have all the words you could imagine. What they were saying is I'm so uncomfortable, I'm so afraid I'll mess it up, I don't know how the person is going to react. And that story became the reason not to even try the conversation. So I kept thinking what's the way to solve this, what's the way to get people off the couch and into the conversation and get away from all their hesitancy? And so I started thinking. You know, the first idea that came to me as I was walking around thinking about this over and over and over is that game show, name that tune. And there would be this part in the game show where the contestants would sort of buy back and forth about I can name that tune in eight notes and someone else will say six. And I thought I wonder if a little bit of gamification might engage people a little bit differently to get beat beyond the fear and start playing with it. 

06:50
And then the question became what is the minimum viable product for a productive conversation? So I started listening, I started talking to people, I was writing things down and there was a sweet spot four words. So in four words you could start the conversation. And so I tested it with my clients and I would say would you have the conversation? Yes, and they would say I don't know what to say. I'd say if you could get a conversation started in as few as four words, what would you say? 

07:27
Suddenly, they had a couple of ways to start the conversation and then they either wanted to see if they were right or they wanted to prove me wrong. I don't care either way. The fact that they want to go test it out was really all it took to prove me wrong. I don't care either way. The fact that they want to go test it out was really all it took to have the conversation. And I would ask them afterwards you know how did you feel when you, when you did that? Well, we came to a resolution and I feel more confident. I feel more empowered. So I knew I was on to something and that that's the long answer for why I wrote the book so, but you, why do you think it landed on four? 

08:05 - Stacey (Host)
four words like why not? Why wasn't it six or three? 

08:10 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
well, I did a lot of testing with two or three or one, and I worked with, uh, someone. She was from New York and she said I just don't get it. My husband never understands anything, I say, and I said, well, give me some examples. And they came out like, yes, no way. Uh huh, they were sober. 

08:31
I said do you think that he's not getting enough context from you to know that you really are listening or engaging? And she said, possibly. I said just try four and see what happens. She came back to me and she said she was walking around the house, always answering and counting on her fingers, but she said you know, when I took the time to slow down and think something through that had a few more words, he didn't ask so many questions and we weren't having the same argument all the time. 

09:04
So I think there is something that too few is oftentimes too abrupt or doesn't connect quite enough. Why is it? For I found that it's the place that people can laser in and start to plan what they want to say, because the briefest way to make the point oftentimes is the most poignant, and you think about headlines and TikTok and shortened attention spans. If I can just laser in and I always tell people it's a strategy to get started. If what you come up with turns out to be five or six words, no problem, I don't really care how many words it is, if it empowers you to have the conversation you've been avoiding job done. 

09:49 - Mark (Host)
Like what are some examples of four words, it always has to be. 

09:53 - Stacey (Host)
Do you value me Well? 

09:55 - Mark (Host)
the four I fear is we need to talk. 

09:58 - Stacey (Host)
That's the four we need to talk. That's the four we need to talk. 

10:00 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
Oh that is one and that we need to talk. Really we'll come back to that perhaps. But you know, the tone of voice becomes another part of the message here because a lot of communication is nonverbal. So tone, body language, those kinds of things. But I loved your question because people you mean in four words, I could do this. What are the four words? 

10:22 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah, what are they? I'm dying to know. 

10:25 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
And the book has literally I don't know maybe over 100 examples of different four word phrases that can be applied to different situations, including a chapter on. Let me save you the trouble, here's a few four word phrases that are probably not going to land very well, One of them being over my dead body just never really works well, unless you're in the comedy biz. So there are a category of things let's agree to. Agree. Let's stop admiring the problem. 

10:57 - Mark (Host)
You know there's so many different. 

10:59 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
oh, the problem, you know, there's so many different, oh wasn't five. 

11:02 - Stacey (Host)
Let's stop admiring the problems admiring problems. 

11:11 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
Yeah, let's stop admiring problems. I knew I had to work with it, and so I have lots of those examples. And again, if it works out to be five we're still having the conversation. 

11:17 - Stacey (Host)
We're playing. 

11:18 - Mark (Host)
We're playing yeah. 

11:19 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
Yeah. 

11:21 - Mark (Host)
So so it's not just about getting into the conversation right Over my dead body. I don't know if anybody would start a conversation with that Over my dead body. 

11:28 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
There's a lot that have started and stopped with that. 

11:31 - Mark (Host)
But it's just also about keeping the communication going. 

11:34 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
Absolutely, absolutely In all kinds of situations. So that's why there isn't any one particular phrase, because I've got phrases. You know, this started out to be a book for readers because that was the problem I was solving, but as I started to talk about it work with them and listen there were other family situations, personal situations, and you know, what we do in any one place is what we do everywhere. So, starting to think about the praises that might work best in a networking event, yeah, what are? What are some of the? 

12:08 - Mark (Host)
hardest conversations that your clients or through your research that you've come across, these difficult conversations that people don't have you know, there's two that come immediately to mind. 

12:21 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
So one is in the category of leadership. I'm working a lot with leaders and when I started to sit down and think about what are the problematic conversations that they are most typically avoiding or the problems that are coming up because they just never thought to have the conversation, there were four types of leadership conversations that immediately came to mind, and that was how do we talk about actual performance? What's good performance look like? What's not acceptable? Talking about performance, talking about conduct. You know people, if they would just be like me, then everything would be fine. And it doesn't work out that way, especially when you think about so much diversity, generational, where people are from. What might be obvious to you is not obvious necessarily to everyone else. So how do you start becoming more deliberate about talking about conduct and performance? And then for leaders, how can I support you? Do you have the support you need? What else do you need? Those kinds of conversations are really critical, as well as giving and receiving, asking for feedback. So questions become a really powerful tool when we start to think about the four words. 

13:36
Maybe you don't start with a statement. You start with four words, maybe you don't start with a statement. You start with tell me what's going on, how are you doing? Those kinds of things are really important. So that was one category of conversation. The other one is people who are experiencing a setback, a hardship or grief. And these are the kinds of conversations that are so hard to engage in that oftentimes people so afraid of saying the wrong thing or the issue hits so close to home for themselves that they just don't know how to have a conversation. And silence is a powerful communicator, but it doesn't communicate love, empathy, affection and care. It often is interpreted by the other person as the opposite of that. So how do you start to build a bridge or extend yourself, even in those hard times? And I'll tell you, leaders have hardships, setbacks and grief as well, and that's where that first came to me, but it started to have a bigger impact as I explored that with people. 

14:49 - Mark (Host)
What examples. I had that as a question how do you deal with somebody else's loss or tragedy? Because it is almost. Everybody has that moment of I don't know what to say, because I know any words coming out of my mouth. If you just lost somebody close to you, it's not going to be helpful. I know that going in. 

15:04 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
Right, or I'm just going to say what everybody else said so why? 

15:07 - Mark (Host)
even say it, so I personally have that moment. 

15:10 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah, I think everybody does what are those four words that you've seen. 

15:14 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
Well, I think any four words where you're continuing to say something and that you're extending yourself to the person we are bringing dinner, there's four. So, rather than you know, so often you have people say tell me if you need anything that puts a burden on somebody who's already struggling to make it through the day. So you know, anyone allergic, I'm bringing dinner over. 

15:38
I'm you know I'm going to extend myself. I'm going to. I'm. You know I'm gonna extend myself, I'm gonna. Here's what I have to offer. The other thing is, just because you don't have the words right now, don't walk away forever. The most impactful words you say might be four months after a passing or a tragedy, when everyone has dispersed and we want to think that everything's okay. But how do you extend yourself in ways that are genuinely helpful? You know I'll keep you in my prayers doesn't necessarily have the same meaning to everyone. It's an accepted common statement that, almost because it's so ubiquitous, is meaningless. So what are the four words that might stand out? What's your favorite flower? I'm bringing some over. 

16:37
Got it, so there's an action there's an intention behind the four word I've been there too, you know there, there are things that you know. My pain isn't your pain, but I want to understand, you know, or I'm here to listen, that's a powerful one that's a great one that's a good one. 

16:56 - Mark (Host)
I'm here to listen. They probably don't hear that. People don't hear that much no, and they may not be ready to talk, but you haven't failed for offering it if you have to have a difficult conversation with somebody and you said it yourself people don't have that because they worry about how it's going to be received by the other person. You can be seen as attacking. It's a difficult conversation. You can be seen as they can be's a difficult conversation. You can be seen as they can be getting defensive. 

17:24 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
How do you preempt that? One is to catch yourself, to learn how to catch yourself making up the story. So I recently was working with a client and she had a brand new boss that she'd had for a week and they were in a meeting. And when I met with my client, she said I sent something at a meeting and my new boss was really angry with me. And I learned, right then, I should never speak up in these meetings. I said Well, how do you know that she was angry with you? Well, I saw her facial expression. I said she had an expression, a reaction to something. After you said it, she said yeah. I said are you a master of her facial expressions after knowing her for only a week? And she said no, but I know she was mad. I said how do you know she wasn't reacting to the lunch she had and that it was specifically you know, as you start to learn how to exactly bad shrimp? 

18:23
I don't know, but I said, are you really as expert on what's going on in other people's minds as you think you are? So it's really learning how to check the stories that you're making up quite rapidly automatically. It's one of those unconscious bias things that happens in the back of our mind where we think that luck tells me I should never do that again and then you think doesn't it? I need to go check that out. That's the invitation to the conversation is to interrupt your storytelling that so often we all do but to overcome it intentionally, to find out what's really going on. 

19:08 - Stacey (Host)
Has it ever gone wrong, Like you know, when you're talking to sorry yeah 

19:12 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
sorry, I sometimes have to go to the dark side, but like when you're telling a client okay, this is great, we're going to do this thing. You know when you're talking to. 

19:15 - Stacey (Host)
sorry, yeah, sorry, I sometimes have to go to the dark side, but like when you're telling a client okay, this is great, we're going to do this thing, you know, do these talk, say these four words and let's go. Let's try it. Have they ever? Come back and been like oh, those four words. They did not work. You screwed up. 

19:28 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
Well, they have come back and said yeah, they will sometimes come back and say you know that didn't go as planned. I had hoped for something better. We ended up not agreeing on something you know, but you don't know unless you try. And more often than not it's better than they expected. But the question I always ask what did you learn? You know you're smarter for having tried than just making up fictions that are untested. 

20:00 - Mark (Host)
Hey guys, thanks for listening. If you like what you're hearing, please leave us a review, give us a follow, subscribe, all those things. All those things. We love it because we read each and every comment and it helps shape the show, so we would appreciate it. 

20:13 - Stacey (Host)
Please, and back to the show. So we would appreciate it. 

20:15 - Mark (Host)
Please, and back to the show. I love that. That's funny because everything you're saying sounds so diplomatically put. It's a very professional, like clearly you. You wrote the book on this. I get it. I just wanted to throw that in there as a commentary. I love the way you're phrasing these questions because it diffuses emotion right. It doesn't polarize the conversation, which is a great learning I love how you said that. 

20:41 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
I just want to comment on that that that really is. I think a goal in the strategy is if we can kind of bring the emotion down to where we're actually talking about the thing to where we're actually talking about the thing, instead of reacting to personalities and trying to change the world that we're in, and we're just talking neutrally about the facts that we are both dealing with. Without all the emotion, we can usually get to a better result, and the emotion is part of all the stories that have been attributed to the facts. The facts themselves are neutral. So how do you find a way to get to neutral? 

21:24
And this is a strategy to be a little bit more planful about how to enter in what would be a difficult conversation. So do you need this strategy? When you're meeting and greeting and it's easy? Absolutely not. In fact, it's really fun to get together with people that you feel really comfortable with and you're joking and talking and nobody's gonna be counting words. But when it's kind of a higher stakes, I'm comfortable, I'm uncertain and I'm inclined to step away from the conversation. This is the strategy to be more planful and enter in. 

21:57 - Stacey (Host)
I feel like it's like diversionary tactic right, so you know you're going in, you know you're gonna have a difficult conversation, but if you're like, okay, I need four words, and how am I gonna do those four words? And let's see, let's place these correctly and take the emotion out. It's almost like it takes away from the impact of the difficult conversation right, yeah, it's brilliant yeah. 

22:14 - Mark (Host)
I have this phrase I use called seven seconds of clarity and I've used it forever. 

22:18 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
Nice, and my whole point with that is you know, you're complaining about this person. 

22:22 - Mark (Host)
this person's complaining about X, y, z, and I'm like if people would just take seven seconds of a conversation and just state what is on your mind so much could be solved in seven seconds. 

22:38 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
100. You made that up, I did. I love it. Thank you, it's sort of like chap. 

22:40 - Stacey (Host)
It's the next chapter like it was a game changers yeah, yeah, right so I know you said brevity and courage. 

22:47 - Mark (Host)
I don't know where I read this or whatever, but brevity and courage are the keys to, I guess, a good conversation or the starting of a conversation, and it kind of fits with what I just said just seven seconds, but you got to be brave enough to say it. 

23:01 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
So that's right. Where does that? 

23:03 - Mark (Host)
come from. 

23:04 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
Right. At what point do you just say I know what to say I still can't do it. 

23:08 - Mark (Host)
You got to be brave. How do you get brave? 

23:10 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
Yeah, how do you get brave? So I'm working with clients all the time who just want to be confident. I've hired you to make me more confident Interesting, and confidence is a byproduct of being really uncomfortable repeatedly, to the point where you're building that muscle and bravery is right there with it. So it's how do you become brave? You do a lot of things that scare them. Do we swear on this? 

23:39 - Stacey (Host)
I want to hear that confidence thing again. So confidence is a byproduct of say that again. 

23:44 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
Of being uncomfortable over and over and over to where eventually you become not only more comfortable but confident. Bravery works the same way. So if you want to be more brave, find something scary and for a lot of people having a conversation seems to be pretty scary you want to be more brave in your life? Practice with conversations, Because what you do, as I said, what you do anywhere is what you do everywhere. So bravery can be really honed through having uncomfortable conversations to where suddenly you find yourself speaking in public, you might be on a stage. All those things are possible if you just leverage some discomfort. 

24:30 - Stacey (Host)
So what happens after the four words? Is there? Is there a playbook? Do you have? Is it in your book? I've read your book, yet I need to. I need to read your book Where's the rest of the script right? Yes, I want you to tell me exactly what to say after I say the four words Go yeah. 

24:44 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
You know whole scripts. In fact there are people have written whole scripts, whole models for conversations, and I've written some of those, I've taught some of those and what I find is as cool as they are in a learning environment, they don't really work very well in life because nobody can really remember. That was cool and I learned it, but now, in the heat of the moment, I can't remember all of it and that became one more reason not to have the conversation. So I thought let's just focus in on the starting, and what happened is, when people had a way to start, the hunger for engagement and solution automatically fuels the rest of the dialogue. 

25:29
It would be a disservice to give you the script for the whole conversation, because I'll tell you right now it doesn't happen that way, and I started my career as a trial attorney. I was always on the defense side of things, so I could never walk in with the script. The plaintiff's attorney get to speak first, they get the whole script, they get to control the argument and I just have to listen very intently and then respond. And that really is how conversation should and does work in real life. So it's the listening that will inform the next step. 

26:09 - Mark (Host)
I had, um Stacey and I were talking before we came out here that um. I worked for a company that wrote reports and one of the best selling report of all time was exactly a script. For how do I tell an employee Cause it was B2B? How do I tell an employee that they smell? I mean, it's a, it's a bizarre thing, but that hits such a nerve. Um, because if you want to talk about difficult conversations, I didn't tell anybody that right. 

26:39 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
Yeah. 

26:41 - Mark (Host)
It's funny, though, because you're saying like, yeah, that's a script, that's fine. But when you get in that moment, if you tell me I didn't know, Because we don't know how the other person is going to respond. 

26:52 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
Are they going to be surprised? Are they going to be surprised? Are they going to be embarrassed? Are they going to disclose a medical situation that you were completely unaware of? 

26:59
and that is not covered by the script and I'm speaking as a former employee relations director. I have a lot of experience in HR and I've had that very conversation and I think the power of that script is it modeled for people that this is a conversation that other people have. You need to have it, it can be had, but in some ways it's sort of a disservice because it's never going to look like what the script is. But they do affirm this is a conversation worth having. 

27:30 - Mark (Host)
I had one twice. I had to tell someone different job that people were smelling alcohol in their breath. Oh, my yeah yeah, and one of them, as it turns out, had a problem Right and the other one didn't. The other one was just like oh, I did dinner and wine. 

27:45 - Stacey (Host)
Went to happy hour. 

27:46 - Mark (Host)
You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, but yeah, I mean that was, and she admitted to me in that moment that she had a problem, which made it worse, of course, for me, probably for her as well, but that was a really tough conversation to have. 

28:00 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
But you think about what would have happened if you never had it. You know you're setting yourself and others up to fail in potentially a life and death situation. And that's really the challenge is, so many people avoid the conversations that really could have a positive impact. But that's not the story. The back of our brain tells us it's going to go bad, it's going to be uncomfortable, yeah, you look at the end goal. 

28:27 - Mark (Host)
The end goal is you're actually helping as uncomfortable as it seems You're serving a greater good. 

28:34 - Stacey (Host)
Now I didn't have as much trouble with co-workers as I do with my family, like is there a different sort of direction that you go with people who are super close to you that you know, or you know that you're going to hurt their feelings in some way, or like, maybe you just don't want to go to thanksgiving, or is there? Do you know what I? 

28:55 - Mark (Host)
mean Like a real example. 

28:57 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
You don't want to have it at your house this year, but this literally happens. 

29:02 - Stacey (Host)
I'll be talking to people and they'll say, oh, I don't want to host, but I don't want to tell my family because I've done it every year and I get it, yeah Right. 

29:10 - Mark (Host)
So that's a hard conversation, that's a hard conversation. 

29:12 - Stacey (Host)
So what would you say in that scenario, Tucker? 

29:14 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
Well, there's so many layers. But first I would acknowledge, yeah, when you've got a family situation there and they know all your stuff and you know their stuff or at least we think we do, and we think we know even our own stuff and we may or may not, because they may see things that we don't see it is a little bit more layered, less clinical. You don't have employment policies to you know, pull up and say this is the way it is, and oftentimes it is a bigger conversation and there are things that you could say to highlight what you love about being together and how we are celebrating. Let's enjoy this time, let's, you know, find another place and time for the conversation. The best time to have a conversation about shifting responsibilities and a holiday is before the holiday itself, to not walk in that way how to smooth family gatherings. 

30:12
I mean, family members are their own, you know characters. So there's only so much you know you can achieve, but it's worth. It's still worth having. One of the ones I like is let's agree to agree, and that means we're going to find the places where we can agree. Let's discover that because we're focused so much on where we don't agree, that's really not even conducive to moving forward. So let's start with let's agree to agree. Oh, I love that one. 

30:43 - Stacey (Host)
Let's agree to agree, mark, where do we start? That's never going to happen. For once, for once, can we agree to agree? I don't see it happening. 

30:48 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
It may not be as entertaining, but it can be a lot more productive, so you know where do we start? Would be the next question. Four words. 

30:56 - Stacey (Host)
Where do we start? Oh, I love that too. I can't wait to read this book. I know there's so much good stuff in there yeah. 

31:02 - Mark (Host)
I think the problem with politics is there's just a lack of tolerance for the conversation regardless of how it started. 

31:07 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
That's true. 

31:08 - Mark (Host)
There's an immediate. 

31:09 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
Rhet, not a conversation Right right right, exactly, it's not even. 

31:13 - Mark (Host)
That's a very good point. It's not even a conversation. It is one person saying one thing and the other person not letting it in, Then that second person saying back and the first person not letting it in. So there's just a trench warfare right down the middle, but you're right, I miss those days. 

31:27 - Stacey (Host)
I miss those days of just having to sit around and talk about religion and politics. What are three ways to become comfortable having hard conversations? 

31:38 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
It's tough. Well, the first thing I would do is think about what's my goal, where's the place I want to move to, and you may not achieve the entire goal, but incrementally, what would be a good next step? And then, what am I afraid of? Once you name it, it becomes a lot easier to manage it. It's the unnamed fear that starts to rule our lives. And then, if you could start the conversation in four words, what would they be? And the rest is gravy. 

32:15 - Stacey (Host)
She nailed that, she nailed that. 

32:18 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
That was amazing, I love it. 

32:20 - Stacey (Host)
And then so one other thing like so what do you think the ultimate reward is when someone masters this process of having these hard conversations? 

32:28 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
That is such a good question because a lot of times we success of did I win the argument, yes, did I persuade, did I make them say they were sorry? And if you're always looking at the end game to measure your success, you're going to be coming out 50-50 more often than not. Often than not. But did I move the ball a little bit closer to a place of understanding and safety with this person? That will help me move it forward in other conversations with the next person. That's that building that confidence muscle. Was I brave and courageous and planful? Did I have the uncomfortable conversation? Good on me, I'm going to keep doing it. 

33:20 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, it's definitely a muscle. 

33:21 - Stacey (Host)
You have to keep working to get confident and to not be fearful. 

33:26 - Mark (Host)
That's the hardest. 

33:27 - Stacey (Host)
It is so hard. 

33:28 - Mark (Host)
Because guess what these situations? 

33:30 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
they don't come up that often. 

33:32 - Mark (Host)
They're not an everyday thing right. 

33:34 - Stacey (Host)
We just go through our lives. I feel like, I think maybe we're used to just avoiding it. Or we do tackle some of them, like I feel like. Have you ever read the book the Universe has your Back? 

33:42 - Mark (Host)
No. 

33:43 - Stacey (Host)
So that's a book that, like, basically says that if you have to work on something like for me, I'm always working on this having these difficult conversations with people and being like assertive and not being a people pleaser, that's what I'm working on and it always seems to circle back to me. You know, like the universe has your back, it's always going to throw that at you until you master it. Until you figure it out, right. 

34:03 - Mark (Host)
Yeah. 

34:04 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
You know I like that perspective because one of the things, having written this book, I find myself kind of. You know, here's a conversation I particularly don't really want to have. You know, here's a conversation I particularly don't really want to have and I think, darn it. 

34:19 - Mark (Host)
I wrote the book on it. 

34:20 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
You have no excuse. I'm going to have the conversation. I need to be a role model, but it's it's again finding that way to kind of coach and catch yourself. You know whether it's the universe that I'm going to be working with or it's just my own mind. I'm going to notice that and then make different choices. 

34:37 - Stacey (Host)
And it's a wake up. Love it Sweet. What's your next? What's next for you, Tucker? What's your next? 

34:43 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
book. What's next for me? Well, someone told me about this book. She said here's the one thing I hate about it. I was like what she goes? This book would have been so helpful to me in so many ways and I hate that you're calling it a business book. She said slap a different color on it, put some different stories in it, come out with a second volume that will help me with my husband, my family members, my brownie troop and everybody else in the world may be taking on politics and religion as well. So if you see an orange copy on the first four words, you'll know that I took up the charge. 

35:23 - Mark (Host)
I love it. 

35:24 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
But otherwise I'm looking for more speaking engagements. I do workshops and webinars and opportunities for people to have the kinds of conversations that we're having, but also honing in their skills and strategies. 

35:36 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, it's so needed, that's awesome. 

35:39 - Stacey (Host)
Your friend really needed your book, Cause I and here's what I hated about it- I was thinking that that's not a really good way to start the conversation. 

35:47 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
She had my attention. 

35:50 - Mark (Host)
She probably knows you real well and she knows you won't be offended by that, but that's awesome. Oh, we can't thank you enough. 

35:55 - Stacey (Host)
This has been an awesome conversation. I loved this conversation, yeah, and I'm going to get your book immediately, thank you. 

36:03 - Tucker Miller (Guest)
Thank you all for watching. 

36:08 - Stacey (Host)
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