Are Leaders Born or Made? | Ep 055

Ever wonder why some kids (and adults) naturally take charge while others follow? This week we're cracking the leadership code with Dr. Alan Nelson - the guy who teaches Navy SEALs by day and revolutionizes child leadership by night 👊

His take? The best leaders aren't born or made - they're caught early. After training NASA engineers and international military officers, he discovered something shocking: we're developing leaders way too late.

🔥 In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why your "strong-willed" child might be your family's next CEO
• The secret window of leadership development (hint: it's NOT the teen years)
• Real solutions that work from playground to boardroom

💡 From the expert who:

• Wrote 40 books on leadership
• Teaches at the Naval Postgraduate School
• Trained Top Gun pilots
• Studied thousands of young leaders worldwide

➡️ Chapters
(00:02) - "The 3-Year-Old CEO: Spotting Leadership DNA Early"
(07:40) - "From Bossy to Boss: Turning Strong Will into Skill"
(16:42) - "Playground Politics: Natural Leadership in Action"
(28:12) - "The Leadership Launch Pad: Your Home's Hidden Training Ground"

➡️ Highlights
(0:00:02) - "The 5-15 Rule: When Leaders Are Really Made"
Why these critical years determine your child's leadership future
(0:07:40) - "Dinner Table Leadership: Small Moments, Big Impact"
Hidden opportunities to build natural leaders at home
(0:16:43) - "Beyond 'Because I Said So': The Decision Secret"
Turn everyday choices into leadership gold
(0:28:12) - "Natural Leaders: Unlocking What's Already There"
Spot the signs, skip the pressure, watch them soar
Even punchier alternative:
(0:00:02) - "The Leadership Sweet Spot: Ages 5-15"
Why these years matter more than any leadership course
(0:07:40) - "Your Kitchen Table CEO Academy"
How daily family life builds tomorrow's leaders
(0:16:43) - "Smart Choices, Strong Leaders"
The simple decision trick that builds natural authority
(0:28:12) - "Born This Way? The Leadership Truth"
How to spot and spark their natural potential

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Connect with our Hosts:
Stacey: https://www.instagram.com/staceymgrant/
Mark: https://www.instagram.com/mark_lubragge_onair/

➡️ More about the guest:  Dr. Alan E. Nelson, Ed.D., Global Leader, Founder of KidLead
Website: https://www.kidlead.com/
Educational Series: Kid Lead Academy: https://www.kidlead.com/kla

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The Gurus & Game Changers Video Podcast  follows the paths of influential leaders from humble beginnings and/or seemingly insurmountable obstacles to where they are now.

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➡️ Thanks for watching:
#LeadershipPotential, #ChildDevelopment, #Nurturing, #YoungLeaders, #Success, #Cultivating, #Parenting, #Educators, #CollegeAdmissions, #AcademicProwess, #Decision-Making, #Teamwork, #OverprotectiveParenting, #CulturalDifferences, #Genetics, #IndividualPotential, #GrowthOpportunities

Transcript

00:02 - Stacey (Host)
So I really enjoyed this one. I felt like Dr Alan Nelson is obviously an expert in higher education. He's written the book my Kid Leads and he has got this sort of really interesting out there. I feel like it's kind of out there concept where you can literally look at a kid at the age of three and understand whether or not they have leadership material and then enhance that leadership material and help that child become a better and better leader. And he's got the proof of it, he's proven it. 

00:42 - Mark (Host)
He's a global expert in leadership development in kids as young as three years old. He says the magic window is five to 15. And there are ways to tap into what is sort of naturally germinating. 

00:57 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah, it's naturally germinating. It's there. Yeah, it's in there. 

01:00 - Mark (Host)
And a lot of parents. You know we don't focus on that. We focus on reading writing, arithmetic and a lot of parents. You know we don't focus on that. We focus on reading, writing, arithmetic and then if a kid acts like a leader. 

01:06 - Stacey (Host)
sometimes you're like okay, stop Like you know we need to fall in place and some parents you know take the authority back and what he's basically saying is let the kid blossom and bloom, and he's got courses to help parents understand that part of their kids. But, like people like Stephen Covey, john Maxwell, ken Blanchard, they have actually looked to Dr Alan Nelson for some of these techniques. 

01:33 - Mark (Host)
He's got incredible academic credentials, incredible street cred. He's been doing this for a very long time. 

01:40 - Stacey (Host)
Real nice guy too, Very nice guy. 

01:42 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, I am 100% going to that website as soon as we're done Me too. 

01:45 - Stacey (Host)
That's why I specifically forgot it. My kids are older. I don't know that I can influence them anymore. 

01:51 - Mark (Host)
They're past the 15 mark. 

01:53 - Stacey (Host)
It's what Dr Allen calls moldy. 

01:56 - Mark (Host)
At 27 years old. They're moldy. What's that make us? We're crumbling. 

02:01 - Stacey (Host)
Really, really moldy. We're like that bread that you find on the counter that's got the green on it and you're like, oh damn. 

02:08 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, but this is a good one. Even if you don't have kids that age, it's a fascinating topic. So just take a listen. It's going to be sort of enlightening, eye-opening and kind of fun along the way. We enjoyed it. Yeah, enjoy, dr, the way we enjoyed it. 

02:23
Yeah, enjoy, dr allen nelson hi, I'm stacy and I am mark, and this is the gurus of game changers podcast. Okay, so I want you to think about all the kids in your life. Could be your own grandkids, could be your nieces, nephews, neighbors. Kids pick the one that you think has the greatest chance of growing up to be a great leader. Just take a second. Probably already came to you right, because we know we say like that kid's a born leader. But I'll tell you what today's guest, dr Alan Nelson, a global expert in young leader development, will probably tell you you're wrong, not in who you chose, but because you chose. You see, he's the founder of an academy, he's created curriculum, everything that develops leadership potential in kids, and he says he knows, he's proven, that it can be any one of them. In fact, it can be all of them with the right development, focused at the right time. 

03:17 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
Because as it turns out. 

03:18 - Mark (Host)
Contrary to what we've always heard, leaders are made and not born, and you're going to be shocked at how young you could start making them so, doctor. Thank you for joining us, alan. Welcome to the show hey, thank you. 

03:32 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
It's an honor to be here with you welcome, alan. 

03:35 - Stacey (Host)
So we're really happy to have you here today. So you have written, and tell me if I'm wrong. Maybe you've written more since I did my research, but you have written since we started since we started. 

03:45 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
Have you'm wrong? Maybe you've written more since I did my research, but you have written 40, since we started, have you written another one? 

03:48 - Stacey (Host)
Because you've written 40 books on this topic. We're going to try to cover some of them today, but I'm curious like what got you started on this path? And this, obviously, is your passion. So what? How did it get ignited? 

03:57 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
Got to be honest, about half of those books are part of our curricula that deal with teaching kids and teens about leaderships, and for me it was. You know, after earning a doctorate in leadership and writing some books and teaching college classes, you get to a point in midlife. You know, someday, stacey, you'll get a point of midlife. 

04:18 - Stacey (Host)
Thank you for that, Dr Allen. Thank you. What do I want to do? The? 

04:20 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
rest of my life. That started really back in 2004, 2005,. Started my work primarily focusing on identifying leadership potential early and then learning how to teach them organizational leadership skills. A blog posted by Harvard Business Review that first form of leadership training on average takes place around age 42. But that's long past the time when we're pliable in our character. So, yeah, that's how I got in this journey and it's been so fun and yet challenging, because my biggest challenge is to help people in society understand that leadership development needs to start way, way younger than we're doing it now. 

05:09 - Mark (Host)
So just real quick, how do you identify? If I give you a room of four kids, kids under the age of 12, what markers are you looking for to say that that's the kid who has the most potential, not the only one? 

05:22 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
Let me define leadership. Leadership is the process of helping people accomplish together what they would not or could not as individuals. I had 700 books of leadership in my library. Only 5% even defined the term. So that's how we define it, based on that definition. We don't think of leadership as being a good person, or self-esteem or character. We want those qualities in non-leaders. 

05:46
What distinguishes leaders are four things. One is they have the ability to persuade. They are always selling ideas, principles, plans. So the ability to persuade. A second one is they have the ability to plan, to take a concept and to break it into steps. Those are called executive functions. And then they're also good at what we call being self-perpetuating, meaning they initiate things, they start things, they don't just sit around the couch and play games. And then the fourth thing is they're comfortable with power. Sometimes in schools schools don't like young leaders very well. They tend to pound them down because they see them as people who get attention away from the teacher. But they're comfortable with power and if they see something they disagree with, they'll stand up to it and they'll say, hey, this is not right. And so they're sort of comfortable and sometimes they're confrontational, but it's because they have the inklings of being a really great leader. 

06:51 - Stacey (Host)
So why do you think it's important to not just let it grow organically? Why are you, why do you feel the need to develop leadership in kids? Like won't it just happen? Like you know, I've seen it, it's a good question. 

07:06 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
Well, I you know, since 2010, my paying gig has been as a lecturer of management for the Naval Postgraduate School. So I basically work for the Navy, the military, the US government and, to be honest, I think we need a strong military. But the reason why we need a strong military is because we have evil leaders around the world. If we would get rid of the evil leaders, we would have a peaceful world and we could diminish our military significantly. So the idea that we just sort of let leaders pop up, it's kind of common, but it's so unnecessary. And if we could start them young, while they're pliable in their character and in their competencies, we would see that they would be ethical and effective as they grew up. So it's kind of a both, and it's not only to improve their competencies, but it's also to get them while they're moldable in their character. 

08:08 - Stacey (Host)
So you found that that can happen at like age three, like I just can't imagine. Like you know, it's from three to 18. That's, that's what I read. 

08:18 - Mark (Host)
Yes. 

08:19 - Stacey (Host)
What is a? 

08:19 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
three-year-old. 

08:21 - Stacey (Host)
Like how do you coach a three-year-old? That's amazing, I know it. 

08:24 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
I know it, I did. I got to be honest because you know again, when you have a doctorate in leadership and write books, you're always focused on adults. So I kind of didn't believe it either. We started focusing on really 10 to 15. That's the sweet spot. 

08:38
And then we expanded earlier and later and I started working with a school in Silicon Valley. It's kind of a you know kind of a laboratory, and all preschool teachers. I went in there and they said, oh yeah, we can tell who the leaders are. Oh yeah, and they've got little three and four year olds who are the boss moss, and they're telling the other kids, you know a free time or play time or recess, okay, I'm going to be the teacher and you sit over there, and you sit over there and kids follow them. They just follow them just like a little pied piper. So it's not that they had like a dozen kids, but just two or three. And you can see it, even as young as two and three when they start to socialize, certain kids just have sort of a predisposition and if parents don't understand that, they just they see it sometimes as they're troublemakers or they're stubborn and really just, they're just a budding CEO. 

09:33 - Stacey (Host)
So what do you do with a three-year-old then when you've identified that he's a leader, Like you know? Okay, johnny's, johnny's a leader. 

09:39 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
Johnny leads playground and yeah, I think you just do. You do that. You give them opportunities to leave okay and opportunities to be in charge, and then you provide some feedback right, say you know, hey, hey, sarah, how do you think that went? How do you think it could go better? Do you think the kids like doing that or not? And so you, you start start giving little Sarah little things to think about and again give her roles where she can either help you as the teacher, because preschoolers, especially young leaders, they like to be the teacher's helpers because they're under the umbrella of authority, right of power. But then you know, if they do well, you just encourage that, you reward that. If they don't do well, then you offer some, maybe coaching suggestions. Well, maybe try this next time, try that next time, and you just graduate them into higher leadership skills. 

10:40 - Mark (Host)
So it's like operant conditioning. 

10:42 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
You get a cookie, it is. Well it's not If you don't use cookies. 

10:46 - Stacey (Host)
You use positive reinforcement, right? Is that Exactly yeah same thing, nothing more positive. 

10:51 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
Reward desired behavior. 

10:52 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, what does the research show as far as people who are leaders now? Were they leaders as kids, or is that something that you can just develop at any moment when you put your mind to it? 

11:04 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
Well, I think that's an interesting question. It's both and right, because as I interview leaders and I've interviewed a lot of leaders a lot of them say, oh my gosh, when I was a kid, you know like for me, I grew up in a small farming community in southwest Iowa and there was one sixth grade, one fifth grade, one fourth grade. But as I look back at recess time, kids would come up to me and they say, hey, alan, what are we going to play for recess? And so I'd say, okay, let's play soccer today or let's play Red Rover, red Rover. 

11:35
So I think you can see it in places where authority figures are not there and kids can naturally sort of pick their leaders. But I think really one of the things that we want to do is we want to intentionally develop them so that, just like any skill, if a kid is good at baseball, let's get them into baseball, get them some good coaches, get them some good competition. If a child is good at art, let's get them some art classes. We need to intentionally do that. But sometimes leaders, they get tagged as troublemakers. And if you have a parent like I did, my dad was very authoritarian and so for me, the only time I could lead was at school, because at home there was only room for one leader. It wasn't me, it was dad, and so he would literally spank the leadership out of me, oh no, when I was at home. 

12:24 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah, oh no. 

12:24 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
When I was at home. Yeah, so you know. Part of it, I think, depends on the family. If a family has a parent who thinks they need to be in charge and the child is silent, we'll see those leaders bloom later in life. My goal is to help parents through this course, or Kid Lead Academy is to train parents how to not thwart the leadership development of their child. And if it's there maybe it's just a seed how to water and fertilize it. I think it just depends. Some adults say I didn't blossom until I was in my 20s and others say, oh no, at the age of four I was in charge of the playground at my school. 

13:05 - Stacey (Host)
In charge of the playground. What have you seen, like when kids have gone through your program? Or parents like do you have stories? Has it been long enough where you could say, yeah, we had someone who was three and now they're 23 and look what they're doing? 

13:18 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
Yes, so the longitudinal effect is wonderful. We don't have hard science, but we have a lot of stories. We have dozens and dozens of stories of, for example, canada. People in Canada seem to love this. They've sort of lumped onto this faster than us in the US. So I have I just interviewed for my podcast a trainer who actually has now graduated like 15 years ago started this program, and they graduated not only their own kids, but other kids. 

13:52
She got a call from a college president and said what are you doing to these kids? Because when they get to our campus they're just, they're taking over, they're confident and they're good leaders. And she kind of laughed and said well, we started this when they're 10 and 11 years old, right? Wow? So seven years later now they're on, they're on campus. So when you get feedback like that we had another lady who helped pilot the project in Colorado she said she keeps in touch with her people. One of them is an entrepreneur. One of them is the youngest manager of his large company ever. So when you hear stories of that, you realize this is a big deal. It's just we for some reason think that leadership is what adults do in our culture. We don't really think of them young. 

14:43 - Mark (Host)
So you mentioned a time frame, a window of 10 to 15 years old. That's the sweet spot to effect change in their mindset or develop this leadership. 

14:52 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
We call it the 5 to 15 window. The 5 to 15 window is starting really young, but their cognition, their cognitive development really takes a big jump around 10. So ages 10 to 13, we call it the 10-13 window. That's when you really want to start it, because by the age of 15, a lot of them, if you start, then they're preoccupied with you know, with dating and with school and sometimes with part-time jobs, so they're distracted. So we want to get them early. 

15:23
And I think you know we typically focus on academics, arts and athletics, but we ought to also focus on leadership, because very few athletes will ever use their skills beyond high school, certainly not college. It's really really hard to make a living as an artist and academics. I'm in higher ed but academics are overrated. You can get a degree and still be unsuccessful and still be kind of a dork with people. So leadership is a social skill, it's a social art and people who are leaders they make more money, they feel more fulfilled in their work, they feel more fulfilled at life, they're less likely to be bullied and overall their success is going to be better than those who are followers. So that's why we encourage parents to really think about developing their child's leadership, because it gives them a huge head start. 

16:20 - Stacey (Host)
Wow. So I noticed on your website you talked about helping parents get their child noticed by top universities. Have you seen this happen? How do you help parents? Because I know there's probably parents out there that are like maybe I missed the window a little bit, but now they're this age and can I jump in and get them noticed by a top university? 

16:40 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
Well, I think that addresses again. You know, I interviewed quite a few admissions counselors a few years ago and what they were saying is in the old days it was all about GPA and SAT scores and ACT scores. And that's not the case anymore. The top tier schools realize that you can be uber smart academically and not really make an impact on campus. So, for example, stanford University, they said you know, we reject over 90% of our applicants, even though we know most who apply to Stanford could actually earn a degree there. 

17:17
But they said we're interested in people who not just want to take away a degree but they want to give to the school while they're here. So we're looking for the well-rounded students. And they said every year we turn away perfect SAT scores and valedictorians and the parents are dumbfounded how could you reject my child? And they say you know, it's because it's not just all about academics, it's also about being able to lead, being able to make a social impact. So I think parents today need to be aware that what schools are looking for are not just academics. 

17:53 - Stacey (Host)
On the flip side of that, what happens if you seriously miss the window? 

17:57 - Mark (Host)
I was worried about a 15-year-old. 

17:59 - Stacey (Host)
No, your kids are 23 and 25. Is there an application for that? I think I saw that you're working on one. Maybe something different. 

18:09 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
Well, we, you know, our curricula is really designed to go through college. Typical college is, you know, 22, 23. But it doesn't matter at any age. I mean, we know that we're more pliable even before 25 than we are after 25, and neuroplasticity we can always change. But as we study that we realize there's a big peak around adolescence and then after early 20s it tends to decline. So again, it's not that we can't learn new things, it's just that the ROI is lower. It takes more effort to learn new things. It's just that the ROI is lower. 

18:44
It takes more effort to learn new things. 

18:48 - Mark (Host)
What am I doing wrong? Hey guys, thanks for listening. If you like what you're hearing, please leave us a review, give us a follow, subscribe, subscribe, all those things, all those things. We love it because we read each and every comment and it helps shape the show, so we would appreciate it. 

19:04 - Stacey (Host)
Please, and back to the show. 

19:07 - Mark (Host)
You know an average parent who's not focused on their child's leadership. What are we doing to undermine that, without even realizing it? 

19:14 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
You think you know. It goes back to my story, for example, I think my dad undermined it because he was a young dad, he was doing the best he could. That undermined it because he was a young dad, he was doing the best he could. But I think he just sort of thought his role as the dad was a traditional, autocratic, authoritarian approach. And I should comply as a child, and I think today we confuse parenting with being a good friend. We've got to give leaders some space to lead, we've got to let them be in charge, and teachers are afraid of that and parents are afraid of that because we like compliance. As parents, we like compliance, you know, and teachers, we like compliance. But leaders tend to be noncompliant. 

19:58
So you know, an example could be regardless of the age, you could say, hey, bobby, you're going to be in charge of dinner tonight, and a typical parenting approach would be to say Bobby, therefore, you need to make the food right, that's your chore, you need to learn how to cook and be responsive. 

20:17
But if you want to teach leadership, you say, bobby, you're in charge of dinner tonight, so you need to know. You know what's the budget? What are we going to eat? When can people be there? Who's going to do the cooking? Who's going to do the cleanup? Bobby may not even touch the food, but he's learned to lead a project that includes a goal. It includes team members, resolving conflict, working in schedules Everything we need as adults, as leaders. We can learn as a six-year-old in charge of dinner at home. So you know, if parents would just sort of see everyday routines as opportunities to teach leadership, I think we would see a lot more confident leaders and we wouldn't have to parent our kids, baby our kids, because they can be in charge, they can do things as young teens that in the past we've always had to do for them. 

21:11 - Stacey (Host)
Well, what if your kid's like nah? I don't want to leave dinner tonight and that's just another chore you're giving me. Sorry, but there are kids, even the leaders, especially the leaders sometimes, who's like no, my, what I want to do tonight is lead my friends and I want to go out and lead them and you guys can make your own dinner. 

21:28 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
So see ya. 

21:29 - Stacey (Host)
Like what do you? How do you respond? 

21:30 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
Yeah, so you know if they, if they really are leaders, most of them will like it. Most of them will like it. And maybe it's not dinner, maybe it's planning a weekend trip, or you're going to clean the garage. Okay, give us, give us a plan, you know who's going to do what. So I think it's. 

21:50
I remember just last, maybe four May, six months ago, it doesn't matter, but we were visiting our oldest son and his wife and our granddaughters they were six and nine at the time and their playroom was a disaster. Right, it was a disaster. So my wife, nancy, had an idea. She said okay, let's take turns being the leader, and every two or three minutes you're going to be in charge. So, juniper, you're in charge. You tell us what do you want us to clean, and we'll clean it. And then, okay, now it's ivy, it's your turn, so you're in charge. Now you tell us what should we clean and what should we do it. And then it was nancy's turn, right, nana's turn. So they, they took turns and they loved it. They giggled, they laughed and they, they told their parents. They said, hey, we cleaned the room. They were the parents loved the clean room, right, but the process was so much fun because they gamified leadership and a difficult task. So it's really kind of learning how to game everyday tasks into leadership opportunities that can make it fun. 

22:59 - Stacey (Host)
I feel like the six and nine year olds would do that, but then, like the twelve and thirteen year olds, would be like I'm'm onto your game dude. I'm not gonna, I'm not, I'm doing it, but you probably could have could have done a better job than I did with that, I'm sure. 

23:11 - Mark (Host)
Or you probably do so well, we, we play a lot. 

23:24 - Stacey (Host)
I'm not sure we are others out there. I was one of them, were you, I don't know. 

23:30 - Mark (Host)
It's not about me. I was thinking about what about the other side of that? So like, take from Monsters University, mike Wazowski. All he wants to be is scary. Right, he studies, he's like it's in him, I want to's in him, I want to be scared, I want to be scared, but he's not. So what do you do with the kid who all he wants to be is a leader? 

23:54 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
I'm banging on the table. All he wants to be is a leader, but he doesn't. Yeah, he's not a leader. Let's start with a person who's always trying to lead, take over. And the person who's never wants to lead, right. So I I think our tactics are different. 

24:03
So, so, the person who is always trying to hijack we call it hijacking behavior. So when we're working with a group of students, one has the leader lanyard. They're in charge, okay. So everyone can see who's the person in charge. That allows the natural leader, who is good at leading and likes leading, to learn how to follow, because if you can't learn how to follow as a leader, you shouldn't lead. If you always have to dominate, if you're always hijacking meetings, that's bad, right. But the other side of the spectrum are those students and, let's be honest, I work with in my work with some high-end people. 

24:46
We were working with some people at Jet Propulsion Laboratory and these are people who you know, phds, and they study the rings around Saturn, and they're now working their way up the ladder and someone comes to them and say, okay, you're in charge of the other scientists in your group. They don't want to be in charge, right, because they just want to study the rings around Saturn. So it doesn't just. We're not just talking about the little kid who's a wallflower. 

25:12
All through life there are times when we have to step up and be in charge of people, and so learning those skills early, even though they may not be natural and we don't gravitate to them, being able to do them for short periods of time is a really, really great life skill. So again, you know, teaching the strong, natural leader how to be a follower and to be a good listener and team member and, conversely, taking the wallflower and helping them learn confidence of being in charge. The more they do that, the more comfortable they are and confident. It's just familiarity the more we do anything, we're more comfortable and confident. So that's what we're saying let's teach them how to do that as young people so that when they become adults they're valuable on the team and to the organization. 

25:59 - Stacey (Host)
I think to your point, mark like is there has ever been like a failure? Like you bring a kid onto a team? You're like. I see that kid? That kid is a failure, and I'm sure you're probably not going to say this because you don't want anyone to think that they have failed your program. But I mean, is there ever anyone who just falls short of what your expectations are, like the Mike Wazowski? 

26:17 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, maybe he has to bail out. You can give his name. 

26:21 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
Yeah, you can talk. Well, I think it's. How should I say it? I think that sometimes these skills come as we mature Right, because the more talent we have, the younger you need to start developing it. That doesn't mean they won't procure it as adults or as teens, but you may need to help them develop socially, emotionally and cognitively so that you develop a little bit later on. Yet at the same time, I think sometimes it's not so much that the child is wrong, but we have picked the wrong approach to coach them. 

27:03
So in our course, for example, we talk about using the step method. So we have five steps. They all involve different styles of coaching. You start at the top step because we want to sort of test the metal, the capacity of the child, and if we see that's not working, we step down. If that doesn't work, we step down. If that doesn't work, we step down. And then when they basically learn at the first step how to lead, then we wean ourselves from them and they step up and we coach differently. So a lot of it has to do more with not is the child right, but is my coaching approach right? 

27:39 - Stacey (Host)
That's a fabulous answer. Yeah, it's a fabulous answer. Your book Kid Lead. I think it's so cool. It includes interviews. I have to read this from John Maxwell, stephen Covey, ken Blanchard, laurie Beth Jones, ken Foreman, john Cotter tell what's the process like. How did you, did you personally interview those people or how did that work? 

27:59 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
because there's some cool people you have in your book yeah, yes, well, I think partly you know when, when you have a doctorate in the field and you know you're teaching at some great universities, you have, you have in your book. Yeah, yeah, well, I think partly, you know, when you have a doctorate in the field and you know you're teaching at some great universities, you have street cred there, even if they don't know you. Sure, I had the opportunity of being mentored by John Maxwell because my wife worked for him. Wow, so she worked for him. And you know, he even then years ago, was it was a well-respected leadership trainer guru. So I offered to drive him to his speaking engagements just so that I could have time with John. 

28:35
So that was, you know, for me that was kind of some of my mentoring. But the other people I've met, either indirectly or through other people, but I think I think some you know the people who wrote nice things in the book recognize that we need to get to leaders sooner than later and so that it's such a unique idea it's been hard to sell, I think, sometimes to people because they think, oh, that's what a company will do down the road. But these leader experts, they realize now we need to, we need to do it now. 

29:06 - Stacey (Host)
And I feel like too. It's like you know, in Asia they're teaching children so young Right the same type of thing. You know two and three-year-old kids are going on the subway by themselves. I don't know if we give our kids in America that opportunity. 

29:20 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
I was teaching undergrad for a while at the University of Southern California right, it's a high octane school that people go to jail and trying to get their kids in right. So I'm teaching undergraduates. One of my I think it's a freshman or sophomore she had a problem with the grade I gave her right. So she wanted to Zoom call and talk about it. So I said, yeah, I'm happy to. So I get on the Zoom call like we're doing now. 

29:46 - Mark (Host)
And all of a sudden I see these two heads on another screen. 

29:48 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
It was mom and dad. Mom and dad came to our student professor meeting, college student professor meeting. 

29:54 - Stacey (Host)
Oh, it was amazing. 

29:54 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
So I said you know, folks, I respect you, but this is really between you, me and your daughter. So you know this shouldn't be happening the way it's happening. But that's the kind of mindset and it's not that parents are bad, it's that we as parents are good. But we need to know when our goodness is now actually hurting our child and hindering them from developing life skills. They're going to need to do well. 

30:20 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, that's a very good point. So I read somewhere, heard somewhere, I can't remember, but something along the line of you said it in leadership training has a better ROI if you invest in the kids, or invest while they're moldable and not moldy. 

30:35 - Stacey (Host)
Moldy yeah, I saw that too. 

30:37 - Mark (Host)
So of course I'm assuming that means you know you age out at some point or you get. 

30:42 - Stacey (Host)
Like how moldy are we Right, oh God? 

30:45 - Mark (Host)
But like the things that I think stand in the way of good leadership, like you take, like lack of self-confidence or emotional immaturity or ego, things that just from my corporate experience, people that I thought were not good leaders, those are the kinds of things I would attribute as to why they were and I'm sure the little kid as well. That could be the child as well. Lack of self-confidence, emotional. So what is it about growing old? Is it just we get these new barriers up and we stop learning? Like, is that why we're moldy? 

31:16
I can't lead, can't learn to lead it. 

31:18 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
What we're learning, I think what I think we're learning from neuroscience and genetic research is that even though we have certain predispositions, you know, anywhere from 10 to 60% of typical leadership traits are inherited, meaning we were born with it, just like we're born with eye color, we're born with height, we're born with IQ. So those are predispositions, but it's kind of like. I don't know if you like coffee, but I spent a lot of time writing and thinking working at Starbucks. So the tall is the small, the grande is the medium, the venti is the large, it at all. I want it filled right. If I'm paying 30 bucks a gallon for coffee, don't give me half of a cup right. But the same thing is true for Viva Venti I want it all the way to the top. 

32:16
So the goal is, to sort of, as a parent, is to discern what is the capacity of my child in a certain area, and we want to fill them to that level. We want. We don't want to overflow them, but we don't want to give, you know, a child who has a venti capacity half full. And that's one of the challenges is to figure out what is the capacity of my child, and I want to lift it, lift them up to that capacity and believe in them. But I don't want to waste coffee and pour too much in or don't want to underestimate it. And I think that's the challenge of any adult is because we can't really know until we give them opportunities. And as we give them opportunities then you know they'll grow with it or they'll sort of hit a plateau and we'll say, ok, that's probably their level for now. 

33:04 - Mark (Host)
You just said that. I think you said 60 percent. Researchers have attributed 60% of your leadership to being inherited congenital. 

33:13 - Stacey (Host)
I don't know what the word is, but is that correct? What did you say? What was the percentage? 

33:17 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
Well, it depends on what trait you're looking at the Minnesota Twins baseball team. But the Twins database, which compares and contrasts identical twins, which share about 100% of the same DNA, versus fraternal twins which share about 50% of the same DNA. Over a longitudinal study they can see who gravitates to positions of management, who doesn't, who they marry. So they study any number of things. But when we look at genetics we realize that, depending on the trait we look at, between 10 to 60 percent of any given trait is hereditary, meaning it's influenced by our gene pool and we're born with it, got it. So the idea that everyone can be a leader really is unrealistic. Everyone needs to understand leadership but probably, like any field or any gift, you're going to have a very small percent who are just naturally gifted and they need training really, really young. Conversely, you're going to have you know anywhere from 10 to 50 percent who they can learn it young, but they need intentional training to do that. 

34:33 - Stacey (Host)
What about the non-leaders? Every single person can't be a leader, so I don't want the parents whose kids aren't leaders to feel like, oh well, we failed here, right. 

34:43 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
And I think that's unfortunate because people like me have given the impression if you're not a leader, you're not anything, and we make everything about leadership. So I'm very discerning and I make it a narrow thing. Leadership is organizing people to accomplish things together. It's not about self-leadership, that's self-discipline. That's another thing. So we all learn how to be on a team. Henry Ford, for example, said I hire people smarter than me every day. 

35:14
We know that typically the leader is not the smartest person on the team. On average, isn't that interesting? So they have above average IQ, but they're usually not the smartest. So people who are really smart, really gifted, really energetic, can be very successful. They might not have an ounce of leadership in their bones, but they can be very happy and self-fulfilled. But if you have leadership in your DNA and in your bones and in your capacity, you should learn young how to lead well. So again, it's a both and sort of thing. Even if you aren't a leader, you need to understand how leadership works so you don't follow the wrong leaders and so you can add to the team. That's why it needs to become a societal thing. But we need to look at the most talented, elevate them and we need to quit making those not gifted or talented in leadership feel badly about it. That is sad as well. On the other side, that's a good point, so much to think about. 

36:15 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah, I mean, I could probably. 

36:17 - Mark (Host)
I'm questioning my parenting. 

36:18 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
Yeah, well, Well don't beat yourself up, but start today. 

36:23 - Stacey (Host)
It's a teen. 

36:23 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
It's a teen, yeah no, he's in the window. 

36:25 - Stacey (Host)
I got a 23 and a 25 year old. 

36:27 - Mark (Host)
You're over, it's a teen. Yeah, no, he's in the window. I got a 23 and a 25 year old. You're over, it's done. They're moldy. They're moldy. That's funny. Anyway, this is awesome. 

36:32 - Stacey (Host)
Well, so what's next for you, dr Allen? Like how can we support you and get the word out? Oh, that's so sweet. 

36:39 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
Well, you know, between COVID, which shut us down, shut schools, schools and institutions down, and then last year I was diagnosed with prostate cancer and so long story short is, you know, I have gone through treatments and everything's looking good, but for me it was an internal switch right To say, hey, how can we get this out to the most people? So that's why we created this online course. It's seven hours of videos and handouts and training for parents to go through to develop their child's leadership potential. So it really is designed for parents who know their child best and are most motivated to help their child succeed, to understand that leadership is so important and can set their child up for success later in life, but also they can set them up for success now. So it really is a parent training on leadership development. So that's really our main thing right now and trying to get that word out. 

37:38 - Mark (Host)
And is that mykidleadscom Like? How do they go find the training? 

37:42 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
Yeah, it's just kidleadcom. My Kid Leads is the book and they'll receive the book, obviously. But just going to kidleeadcom, my Kid Leads is the book and they'll receive the book, obviously. But just going to KidLeadcom, our information is there. Plus, we have LeadYoungTrainingcom. Leadyoungtrainingcom. That's where we have a lot of free articles, free assessments, and we also have some information. That's again they can sign up for free with our podcast or YouTube videos just to get some resources to start thinking about it, whether they go through the official training or not. 

38:15 - Mark (Host)
Amazing. 

38:16 - Stacey (Host)
Thank you so much for this, really Thank you. 

38:19 - Mark (Host)
It was a great time spent. 

38:20 - Alan Nelson (Guest)
Yeah, you're welcome. It was fun being with you. 

38:23 - Mark (Host)
Awesome and thank you all for watching. We'll see you again in the next episode. You're welcome. 

38:31 - Stacey (Host)
You're still here. You're still listening. Thanks for listening to the Gurus and Game Changers podcast While you're here. If you enjoyed it, please take a minute to rate this episode and leave us a quick review. We want to know what you thought of the show and what you took from it and how it might have helped you. We read and appreciate every comment. Thanks, See you next week.