Clergy Abuse: A Survivor Breaks the Silence | Ep 056

🎙️ Episode Overview
A survivor's powerful journey from victimization to advocacy, featuring Sandy Phillips Kirkham, author of "Let Me Prey Upon You".

🚨 Content Warning
This episode contains discussions of clergy sexual abuse and its impact on young people. While handled sensitively, listener discretion is advised.

The Story
At 16, Sandy Phillips Kirkham thought she had found a spiritual mentor in her youth pastor. Instead, she found herself trapped in a five-year nightmare of manipulation and abuse, masked behind the facade of religious guidance. Now, decades later, Sandy breaks her silence in this powerful episode, taking us through her journey from a trusting teenager to a fierce advocate for change.

But this isn't just a story about trauma – it's a testament to resilience. After years of carrying this burden alone, Sandy didn't just confront her abuser; she transformed her pain into purpose. Her book "Let Me Prey Upon You" rips away the veil of secrecy that often protects religious institutions, exposing how predators exploit faith to access their victims.

Whether you're a parent, religious leader, or someone grappling with their own trauma, Sandy's insights could help protect the next vulnerable teen or guide another survivor toward healing.

Chapters
(0:000) - Sandy's Story of Clergy Sexual Abuse
(12:47) - Manipulative Clergy Abuser's Control Tactics
(19:19) - Grooming, Betrayal and Consequences of Clergy Abuse
(25:27) - Church Responses to Clergy Abuse
(38:19) - Rebuilding Faith After Betrayal
(42:27) - Healing and Advocacy After Abuse
(52:18) - Gratitude for Enlightening Candid Conversation

Highlights
(06:48) Uncomfortable Progression of Physical Intimacy (23 Seconds)
(09:42) Inappropriate Relationship With Pastor (43 Seconds)
(16:15) Elders' Instructions in Church Scandal (44 Seconds)
(18:40) Sexual Misconduct Scandal Unfolds (82 Seconds)
(25:27) Exposing a Pastor's Dark Past (46 Seconds)
(32:23) Victims Seeking Validation From Churches (78 Seconds)
(39:31) Writing the Book (67 Seconds)
(47:16) Avoid Texting Between Adults and Children (55 Seconds)

Resources & Action Steps

1. Immediate Help: 
   • Support Resources:
     • National Sexual Assault Hotline: 800.656.HOPE (4673)
     • Online Chat: online.rainn.org
     • Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741741
     • SNAP Network: snapnetwork
     • In an Emergency call or text 911
2. Prevention Guidelines: 
   • Two-adult rule for youth activities
   • Transparent communication policies
   • Background check requirements
   • Social media and messaging protocols
3. Further Reading: 
   • "Let Me Prey Upon You" by Sandy Phillips Kirkham
   • Hope of Survivors: https://www.thehopeofsurvivors.org/
   • COCA - Council on Child Abuse: https://www.cocachild.org/

If you're struggling, please reach out for support. You are not alone.

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➡️ More about the guest:  Sandy Phillips Kirkham
Website: www.Sandyphillipskirkham.com  
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sandy.phillipskirkham/
Book: "Let Me Prey Upon You" by Sandy Phillips Kirkham: https://www.amazon.com/Let-Prey-Upon-You-Ministers/dp/1734195207

Transcript

00:00 - Stacey (Host)
This episode contains detailed discussions of clergy sexual abuse and trauma. The story shared includes experiences of grooming and sexual abuse of a minor. While this content may be difficult to hear, we share it to give voice to survivors and promote awareness. If you need to step away at any point, please do so. Your well-being comes first and if you find yourself becoming overwhelmed, please remember you're not alone. Support is available 24-7 through the resources in our show notes. I mean, that episode was riveting, I have to say I know, it was mostly not us talking, so I'm not being like. 

00:41 - Mark (Host)
The story is unbelievable. It could be my favorite episode yet and that's like what? 50 some episodes in it. I could not wait for her to say what she had to say next. As disturbing as the topic is, the story is phenomenal. It really is. It's the guest name is sandy phillips kirkham, and essentially she was abused by a youth pastor as a teenager, and her story, from the moment she met this man to present day, decades later, is a must listen. 

01:17 - Stacey (Host)
I mean she was 16 when she met him. She describes him as coming into the church like a rock star. Everybody loved this new youth pastor. They were so excited and he chose her. 

01:28 - Mark (Host)
He chose her because she was special. 

01:30 - Stacey (Host)
He chose her because she was special to do everything with and it got really dark really fast and he was well. I don't want to tell the whole story because I want people to tune in and listen to what happened. 

01:46 - Mark (Host)
Rest assured, he's in one of the circles of hell when it happens. 

01:51 - Stacey (Host)
Well. 

01:52 - Mark (Host)
He should be. 

01:54 - Stacey (Host)
But we know the truth is that some of these people never really get punished for what they do. Yeah, so I'm not saying that's what happened in the story, but I might be. 

02:05 - Mark (Host)
Give it a listen. This is a good one. 

02:09 - Stacey (Host)
Hi, I'm Stacey. 

02:10 - Mark (Host)
And I am Mark, and this is the Gurus at Game Changers podcast. Welcome everybody. So today's topic is a little more solemn, a little more serious, but it is important. The reality is, bad things happen to people and, sadly, sometimes they happen to very young people. And that is the reality of today's guest, sandy Phillips Kirkham, who, at the age of 16, was sexually abused by her youth pastor. 

02:37
And that abuse lasted for about five years Now. She was not his first victim, nor was she his last victim and eventually, when this abuse was uncovered, not surprisingly, he did not suffer the repercussions, the appropriate consequences. So for the next nearly three decades Sally lived privately with this until she decided one day she was going to track him down and confront him. And she did, and she captures her entire story in her book titled. Let Me Pray Upon you and Sandy before we go, I just want to say thank you for sharing your story and we appreciate it because I'm sure it will go a long way to preventing that next 16-year-old from maybe falling victim to what is, I guess, a lifelong trap. So welcome to the show. 

03:27 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
Thank you, it's good to be here. 

03:28 - Stacey (Host)
Hey Sandy, Thank you so much for coming and talking about this. It's so important to hear your side of the story. You were very involved at the church at the time. You were 16 when this first happened to you. This pastor comes into town I'm going to kind of try and summarize and you described him as almost like a rock star when he showed up. So he was obviously a very charismatic person. Can you tell us the story about when you first met him and when he first came into town? 

03:58 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
He came to our church just after I turned 16, and everyone was excited because he had done some really big things in his church prior. He came with new ideas. He was, if you'd say, in the vernacular of the 70s. He was very hip. He identified with the kids. He was just a different kind of pastor than we'd ever seen before. He was very demonstrative. He wanted everyone to hug each other. We were to talk about loving each other, and so he just had an aura about him. 

04:27
And so the first time I met him, the senior pastor introduced him to me and he took my hand and my senior pastor said this is Sandy. She's one of our leaders in the youth group. She's going to be a big help to your ministry and we call her Miss Sunshine because of her smile. And I was flattered and he looked down at me and he said you do have a beautiful smile. And he continued to hold my hand and I remember thinking I wonder why he's not letting go. It just seemed a little odd to me. 

04:56
But that was my first meeting with him and soon after he arrived he began tapping into my talents and my services and expecting me to be around the church a whole lot more, doing more things in the church, which I was happy to do Because in my mind, this is my way of helping the church and growing spiritually. It was I love that church. It was everything I wanted to be with that church, and so he spent a lot more time with me. He would take me on hospital visits and so he developed this really close relationship with me. 

05:28 - Stacey (Host)
Just, you know, prior to doing anything sexual with me, so he would take you like off campus and your parents weren't like wondering you know where you were going, or they were just so trusting because this was someone from the church First of all, you have to remember this was back in the 70s, so clergy abuse was not on the radar radar. 

05:46 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
No one would even suspect that this would be a problem. Secondly, you know this was a time of also when teenagers were experiencing with drugs, free sex, and so in my parents' mind this was a great place for me to be and because he was so charismatic. As many of these men do, they not only groom and pull in the victim, they groom the entire congregation, so he also. You know my mom thought he was wonderful and you know hospital visits I was. That was something that seems very innocuous. So there was never any red flags that were created because of his behavior with me and I think that a lot of that's still true today. It wasn't just. We still trust these pastors and ministers and rabbis and priests with our children, assuming because of who they are, they are safe. 

06:36 - Mark (Host)
Was there a moment so he held your hand too long? That's a precursor to everything, right, you sort of have that vibe. Now you get it. Did things like that just continue to happen and it got more and more intimate? Or was there a moment where, like whoa, what's happening right now, Unexpected, no it was very subtle and over time. 

06:57 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
So, for one instance, my friend and I needed a ride home and I hopped in the back seat. My friend hopped in the front seat and he commented to me later well, why didn't you sit in the front seat with me? Are you mad at me? And I'm thinking well, I don't know why I would be mad at him. It was those subtle little things that he would indicate to me. You know we have a special relationship and we need to. You know you need to continue that with me in a special way. Nothing physical, just that it was. 

07:21
He wanted that contact with me without the sexual part of it, and that continued for all about six months. And, of course, I'm a young teenager, my parents were divorced. I was a little insecure for a lot of reasons. I'm flattered by his attention and I also know that everyone in this church loved him and I was getting the extra attention from him. And so it was within about six months that he moved to kissing me in my hallway after a church meeting at my home, and he waited for everyone to leave and he just simply bent down. Well, first he told me how great I was, how much he appreciated me. And then he bent down and kissed me on the lips and it was a quick, kind of an innocent kiss, so it wasn't anything that would necessarily, you know, be a violent type thing that would really tell me this is something bad. 

08:07
So my first reaction was well, this is my pastor, he shouldn't be doing anything, he shouldn't be doing. But I think he just kissed me. But I couldn't reconcile it, you know. It was like so I just thought this is his way of showing how much he appreciates what I've been doing. 

08:23
And again, because he was so a person who liked to hug and touch people, I just thought well, this is just one more way, and I'm 16, you know so I don't really understand it, but I let it go because I didn't want to hurt his feelings and I just it was the only way I could justify it and that kind of continued for about a year, that kind of extra kissing, hugging. I babysat for his family. She worked evenings, so that gave him the perfect opportunity to be alone with me and we would spend time talking about the Bible, we would talk about church. So he's building this trust in him in a very subtle way. Till one night, he decided to put me on the floor, began undressing me and he had sex with me wow and it was the horrifying moment and that I knew was wrong and I didn't know how to stop it. 

09:14
I kind of zoned out. I described that in the book on how I just stopped thinking about what he was doing and he took me up to bedroom, laid me on the bed and had sex with me. I had no idea what he was doing. I had never done anything more than kiss a boy. I started to bleed on the bed. I was scared. It was a very traumatic moment in my life and yet I didn't know how to stop it. I didn't know what to say to him. And then he, of course, went into this dialogue of how special this was between us. This is something that god has ordained, that. This is god's will, because I can help him in his ministry and I I'm just. And the next thing he said is you can't tell anybody. And I'm thinking there's any way I would tell anyone. I don't want them to know about this, about me that I've just had sex with this married man who's my pastor. So it was that I couldn't justify. I had a lot of guilt over that. 

10:12 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah, yeah, so he made it appear and seemed it was okay. 

10:16
Yeah and he. So you were 16 and he was 30, right, so he was 30 and he had a family obviously power. I think I remember you saying in a prior interview that he was 30 and he had a family obviously power. I think I remember you saying in a prior interview that he was also accused of this in the past and um, by another woman from a former church, of like sexual misconduct didn't stick for him when he first came to your church or like what happened. 

10:40 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
After he was hired. She came forward and said there was some sexual misconduct. I don't know the extent of what it was. The elders of the church went to him with this accusation. He said it's true, I'm sorry, I should not have done it, I will never do that again. And they said to him we understand, you've made a mistake, we forgive you. And they let him continue on as our youth pastor without giving any of that information to the congregation. And of course he promised he'd never do it again. But within six months of that accusation, which he didn't deny, he was kissing me in my hallway, good God. 

11:18 - Stacey (Host)
So I'm sure, as you were there and this person who you respected and admired and had no idea that something like this could even happen, you probably disassociated a bit after that. You still would talk to him, or wasn't there a moment at that point where you were like I'm never going to talk to this person again. That was so scary, like I need to get away from this person. I need to tell someone no. 

11:44 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
I never had that. I felt like I had depended upon him because he had been so good to me. He had helped me through issues with my dad. And this is what they do. They spend up to a year or two, sometimes longer, to groom this person, to get them dependent upon them, to get them to trust them so completely that whatever they tell them they're going to believe. And when he tells me this is God's will, you know, he's the pastor and I'm trying to figure out if this is true, if it's not true, sandy, I didn't want to lose, you know, his attention and affection. I didn't like what was happening, but I also knew that if I said anything to him or tried to get out of it, you know, I would not only probably lose him but my church, and so those became more important to me than actually what was happening, and it is a disassociation For me. It was like, okay, I'll just do this because it's what I need to do Now. 

12:47
There were times when I tried to get out of the relationship, twice in particular. I can remember just feeling so guilty and so ashamed. I went to him and I would say to him look, I can't do this anymore. This is wrong. You're married, and he would say or respond in one of two ways. One would be you're no longer a virgin, no one's ever going to want you and no one can love you like I can. I'm the only one that knows you well enough to love you, and no one else is going to love you. The second response would be in a very caring, loving way I can't live without you. I need you in the church, the church needs you. This is what God wants for us, and so I had no answers to either one of those. 

13:27 - Stacey (Host)
I had no answers to either one of those no answers. He's a bastard. This guy's a bastard. 

13:29 - Mark (Host)
I know you probably want to kill him. Yeah, yeah, and this went on for five years five years. 

13:32 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
What happened? So the first two years, I would say, I was in constant turmoil. I was always trying to please him, to make the relationship work. He was. He went from being this wonderful pastor to being physically abusive to me, degrading to me. He called me fat, he told me I was never smart. He would require me to learn a new word every week, a new definition of a word, and then I'd have to come back and tell him the definition, use it in a sentence, and he says well is to, so I can make you smarter, and to help you be around people so you can speak eloquently. 

14:08
I was totally under his control. He told me how I could dress, what friends I could see, and this is very common with victims of of any kind of abuse. The perpetrator needs control, he needs to be able to control, and, and they look for vulnerable people. They look for those that they know will be easily manipulated and easily controlled, and so there was never really a time that I felt like I could get out of the relationship. So after about two years, instead of fighting it and trying to figure it out, I gave up. I decided this was my life. This would only be over. When he said it was over, I knew I never married, I never have kids. So what I then did was just found ways to make it work. Please him, if he wanted me to wear a certain dress or dress a certain, I did it. If he said I couldn't see a certain friend, I didn't. So the control part became such a part of my life that it didn't. I didn't see it as anything else. This became my norm. It became normal for me. 

15:09 - Mark (Host)
Okay, let me ask you a question. You mentioned he helped you with your father. Was your father aware of what was happening? Not aware, he wasn't aware. Was your father present? Did you feel like you could go to him? Couldn't go to him. Every father would want to protect his daughter from this. Is where I'm going, correct couldn't go to him. 

15:24 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
Every father would want to protect his daughter from. This is where I'm going. Correct. He, my parents, were divorced, so I I basically saw him on the weekends and as my teenage years I got little lessons because I got active in activities. He remarried, so I I saw him on holidays during my teenage years. Most of the time. I absolutely adored my dad, loved my dad. The divorce devastated me. It was something that really carried throughout my life. So they weren't aware. My dad wasn't around. He lived on the other side of town. My mom, again, she thought this was great and so, interestingly enough, when you ask if my dad ever knew, I eventually did tell my mom and my stepfather after he was caught, but I never told my dad for that very reason that you just said. 

16:06
I knew he would feel horrible for not have been around to protect me and so I didn't want to put that burden on him. So he never did know. Keep in mind that the elders, once this man was caught, the elders told me that I was not to talk to anyone and I was not to tell my parents. And because two elders knew the next thing, you know, they tell their wives and their wives tell their best friend. And so it started to get out in the church that there was something going on, there was a reason why this man was going to be leaving, and so at that point I went to the elders and said I need to tell. Actually, I went to Jeff first to ask his permission. That's again how much control he had. I went to him and said my mom and stepfather are going to find out if I don't tell them. Can I tell them? And he said yes, go ahead and tell them. So that's the only way. It even got to the point where I was able to tell my parents. 

17:00 - Stacey (Host)
How did he get caught? Like what happened. 

17:02 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
Well you can imagine, after five years and I'm not dating anyone, he's spending a lot of time with me. People kind of thought it was odd and got a little suspicious. So two elders in the church became suspicious of his behavior. They followed him one night and found us in a hotel room, and that's how he was discovered. 

17:20 - Stacey (Host)
You were there, he was there. Were you petrified, I was absolutely petrified, Absolutely. 

17:26 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
I remember the phone rang. He said the elders are in the lobby, I need to go downstairs. I looked for a window to come out, go out of. I mean, my whole world was about to blow up. I was obviously embarrassed, and so he was there with them for about 15, 20 minutes. He said I'm going back with them and you need to go back home. 

17:52
After that he was called in by the elders, the entire body of elders. I don't know what he said to them, what narrative he gave. I was never asked any questions. I was never told or asked to tell my side of the story. All I was told was that I was to sit in church in a certain way, I was to behave in a certain way, and if anyone asked me any questions, I was to direct them to the elders. They had one woman who was supposed to be in charge of me, kind of like the church lady. She kept tabs on me to make sure I was doing everything I was supposed to do, and the whole goal of this was to keep it silent. Keep it quiet so that they could move him to the next church. There was actually a vote by the elders whether or not they should keep him. Fortunately for me, the vote was to move him to the next church. 

18:40
Where to no one's surprise, he committed sexual misconduct again after he was pregnant. 

18:46 - Mark (Host)
At this point you're not a minor, so when he told you okay, please let everybody know we're having an affair, essentially, right. Right, that's in his mind, that's what it was. But was it exposed at that moment that he had been doing this to you, that he essentially raped you when you were 16 years old? 

19:04 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
No, he had told me one of the few things conversations I had with him after this incident, being found in the hotel room tell everyone that this has only been going on for a year and, of course, being the dutiful victim I am. So. He did that for two reasons. One, he obviously didn't want anyone to know my age. Secondly, he did it because he knew it would be easier to get away with it If he could say this was a mistake, that was a year. He did not want that congregation to know the entire time that he was the pastor there. He was doing this right under their noses. 

19:41
It's a little bit easier to forgive someone if you don't feel like you've been played the fool. But for five years he stood up and preached on family life, love God, while he'd been having sex with me, and that would have been a little bit harder for them to say okay, you made a mistake, you know you fell into sin, as they like to say in the church, right? 

20:02 - Stacey (Host)
fell into sin, oh my gosh was there a part of you when this so did it end after that? And if it did end, when, after he got caught, weren't you a bit heartbroken because I mean, or whatever that feeling is, because in a sense you've you'd had a codependent relationship with him? So there's probably part of you that felt so guilty and and strange about the whole thing, but another part of you that was like I am losing this person that has been such a big part of my life. Still, he was like what? Your best friend, your boyfriend. 

20:37 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
You have. You've hit the nail on the head. That's exactly how I felt, Because, again after five years, I have lost my own sense of self. I've lost my own ability to think for myself. I've lost anything. A part of me was all tied with him, and so I didn't have a feeling of relief. My feeling was what do I do now? What's going to happen to me Now? The thing that really set me really was the fact that once they decided that he was going to be moved to the next church, he was given a going away party. He was giving lavish gifts. He and his wife were given this wonderful party. I was then called in by the elders and told that, because of my behavior, I was to leave the church. 

21:23 - Mark (Host)
Your behavior. 

21:24 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
And so my fear that I had always felt that I'd lose my church happened. And so I wake up on a Sunday morning with no church life and I had never been a part of me and every part of me was part of my church life. So after it ended, supposedly it wasn't going to be over till he said it was over. So even after he moved, he was continuing to call me, insisting that I come see him, and at one point I did, insisting that I come see him, and at one point I did. But there was another time he called and I refused to see him, and that began the moment that I was able to say no to him. And I could only say no to him because he was miles away, he wasn't looking right at me, he wasn't pushing me up against the wall, saying to me you're never going to be able to leave me, so stop talking about it. I could have a little bit more courage with a phone line between us, right. 

22:16 - Mark (Host)
Was he still married or did his wife leave him? 

22:20 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
She eventually left him after this second, third incident, when he left our church. When that woman became pregnant, she eventually divorced him and I had hired a private investigator to locate him 27 years later to confront him. I also used that same investigator to find her, because not that I was to blame for anything that happened in that time period, but I did want to acknowledge because I liked her, she was a wonderful person and he was abusive to her as well. I was in their home babysitting, so I saw how he treated her and I just wanted to acknowledge to her as well. I was in their home babysitting, so I saw how he treated her and I just wanted to acknowledge to her the pain that I know that must have been for her and she couldn't have been more gracious. She was so kind. She has remarried, she's in a beautiful relationship now and her willingness to let me let go of any guilt I may have felt was such a gift to me and I so appreciate that. But yeah, she eventually decided enough had been enough. 

23:16 - Stacey (Host)
That's good, that's good. And so the third victim became pregnant. Was she older as well, or did? 

23:23 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
it start, she was probably 20. I think she was in her 20s and he's like close to 40 at this point Did you ever look her up? 

23:30 - Stacey (Host)
I did. 

23:35 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
But I looked her up back then. I didn't contact her now I wanted to know who she was and he actually believe it or not sent me a picture of her, describing her as my second Sandy. 

23:52 - Mark (Host)
He's a monster. That's unbelievable. 

23:55 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
Well, he's a narcissist and he's a danger, and he still remains in ministry. 

24:01 - Mark (Host)
Hey guys, thanks for listening. If you like what you're hearing, please leave us a review, give us a follow, subscribe, subscribe all those things, all those things. We love it because we read each and every comment and it helps shape the show, so we would appreciate it please, and back to the show he's a narcissist and he's a danger, and he still remains in ministry and he's still in what? Frightening and frustrating can I ask you a question? 

24:25 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
you used I usually use that for I I usually wait till the end to put that out there, because I love the jaw drops. 

24:31 - Mark (Host)
No, the response I mean part of me believes it, because you've seen that with the catholic church, you know, through the years. And then this is a protestant uh church. 

24:38 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
You mentioned his first name while you were speaking earlier do you name him in your book I don't, and I did that for two reasons. Um, the first is when I first began speaking now back in 2004, I wanted to be sure that my message was heard and not as a vindictive way of getting back to him. So I was trying to get into like Cincinnati Christian University to speak and I felt like if I used was, if I was adamant about that had to use his name. They wouldn't allow me to come in because they wanted to. There was no, you know, they were worried about legal reasons and that kind of thing. So the second reason was his second, first wife, who I contacted. She asked me not to because it was a reflection back to they had kids sure and so that was my gift back to her. 

25:24
Um, that makes sense, and I I had mixed feelings about that. Now I did out him as much as I could to his church. I went to his president of the denomination. I went to his regional ministers. When I found out he was at another church, I contacted them. So I made a lot of effort to make sure everyone around him knew who he was and what he had done. 

25:47
When I confronted him, one of the things that just frightened me so much was now he's got a history of sexual abuse within the church. He admitted to that. He said he'd been to counseling and that he'd been identified as a sexual addict, which that was my jaw-dropping moment. How do you let a man who says he's a sexual addict be your pastor? But nonetheless, that's what they said. So what I was just so blown away by was his current church. No one knew about his past. His elders, no one was watching this man because they had no clue of his background. So the first thing I said to them was to him and his supervisor, who was in the room your elders need to know about this. So I wrote a letter 11 letters to all these elders, not vindictive. I simply said this is who I am. This is what occurred. I know that there's been instances over the years and I'm very concerned about him remaining in ministry. How many of them do you think responded back out of the 11? 

26:48 - Stacey (Host)
No no don't tell me. 

26:50 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
I'd be shocked if any didn't zero yeah yeah, and they're all complicit if it happens again I could file a civil suit against him, um which as soon as he got that letter, he retired immediately with I mean within days he he sent his right in resignation. Statute of limitations had run out, so I had no legal recourse other than the civil suit, which at the time was dismissed because at the time in Ohio the age of 16 was the age of consent and so I had no legal boundaries. But once he found out that the civil suit had no validity or teeth to it, he then went back into the ministry and went to another church to work part-time. I sent them a letter telling them you need to know about this man's background if you're going to hire him for your church. 

27:39
The letter that I received is in the back of my book and it is scathing. She calls me evil, she tells me I'm vindictive. She tells me I'm only out to hurt the church, I'm only out to hurt my abuser who hurt me, and that her ending line was I hope you're happy with your evilness. Wow, wait a minute. 

27:58 - Mark (Host)
Does she sign? It? Is her name on the bottom of that letter. Yeah, it's on there. 

28:02 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
It's a church in Anniston, alabama. I don't mind saying that and people wonder why victims don't come forward. I was strong enough to handle a letter like that. Of course it shook me to my core. I was shaking when I read it, but then I became angry. I'm thinking how does this woman even come close? I mean, if she doesn't want to accept this behavior in this man or believe that he did it, there's a. That's fine. But to call me evil, to to accuse me of only looking to hurt my abuser because he hurt me, wait, but that's that's admitting it. 

28:35 - Stacey (Host)
Then I mean, that's, that's the crazy part of it. Well, absolutely. 

28:38 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
I mean they are, but I felt like at least the minimum I made them aware and it was on their watch if anything else happened. And the thing is they're never going to know if something happens. My abuse went on for five years and there wasn't anyone in that church that had a clue. So just because you say I've had some people say, oh well, he's safe, now there's never been another accusation that you know of. I mean, just because you don't see it doesn't mean there isn't something happening. And these men, they are repetitive behaviors. It will happen again. And the fact that no one's watching him it's incredible. And, mark, you're right, these are enablers, these are the men and women sometimes who support these people. And he got another going away party when he retired. I guess that's my gift to him to give him going away parties. 

29:30 - Stacey (Host)
I'm hopeful that if this happened today, you might have a better chance. You hear about the thing in California that just happened. The Archdiocese of Los Angeles has agreed to pay $880 million to victims of clergy sexual abuse dating back decades, and that's what attorneys have said. It was the largest single child sex abuse settlement with the Catholic Archdiocese. But then I looked back. I looked to see like how much the Catholic Church has paid and according to the Bishop Accountability which who knows what that is the Catholic Church has paid over $4 billion in claims and settlements through over 8,600 cases that they've found. And that's what they've found out about, and that's just the Catholic Church. My hope is, with all of that happening, that these days more people would have believed you, more people would have stood up for you. Do you think that's true? 

30:24 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
So we didn't have Oprah and we didn't have the internet for these news items to get out and for people to understand. Wow, this really does happen, I will say, with the Catholic payout. One of the things that they require, though, is that victims can no longer talk about it, and that's silencing the victims, and part of healing is to be able to have your voice be heard, and so it's not probably the case in every case, but most cases when the Catholic Church, or any church, will settle with the victims, it's with the understanding. They don't write a book, they don't talk about it, they don't go on podcasts, and that silences them again. I do think it's better, but I work with victims all the time and churches. They're just more clever sometimes about trying to keep it quiet. So, in other words, you know they'll say you know, we know this happened and we're so sorry and we're going to take care of it, and victims, in their state of this newness, say they trust the church that they'll take care of it. 

31:22
Victims aren't often compensated, especially in small churches like an independent church like mine. We've got a long way to go with this, and sometimes payouts are meant to make the lawsuits go away. I mean it's good that they did that. I'm not trying to make sure, but I think we need to view it with a little bit of maybe, maybe not kind of. That's a good point. That's a very good point. 

31:48 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah, I did not realize that was the case that you can't talk about it once you've gotten paid. It's like the mob. They're buying silence Ah. 

31:54 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
Lord and so many times my victims will tell me the perpetrator is giving counseling, he's forgiven. People rally around him and the victim is kind of left to say you know, you need to forgive, because that's what God expects us to do. 

32:09
He forgives you for your sins. You no, you need to forgive, because that's what God expects us to do. He forgives you for your sins. You should forgive him. We've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So they use scripture to guilt the victim into saying, okay, I won't make a big deal about this or I won't sue. And really, you know, no victim wakes up and says I understand now what was done to me and I'm going to go sue the church. What victims do is they go to the church and ask for some kind of validation for what happened. They want help, they want the church to respond as a church, and what they get is churches giving comfort to the perpetrator. Listen, there is. It's black and white. There should be no discussion. 

32:49
Elders don't have meetings to say, okay, should we keep him? Should we not keep him? What do we do? What do we not do? No, he's removed. He's removed immediately and he doesn't get a chance to stand up to the congregation and say how sorry he is, cry his crocodile tears, beg for forgiveness. Tell them how great he'd been to the church and how much he loved them. Beg for forgiveness. Tell them how great he'd been to the church and how much he loved them. 

33:12 - Stacey (Host)
No, no victim gets to do that. You should be in jail, in my opinion. 

33:14 - Mark (Host)
You should be in jail, yeah, so. So what was? That moment, 27 years later. What triggered that moment? 

33:23 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
to say you know what I'm done, I'm gonna go get him I was driving down 75 and the uh, I saw an exit sign for the city to where he had moved after leaving our church, and for that that memory just flooded me. I had to pull off to the side of the road. I'm sitting on the gravel next to the guardrail. The door, my car, is open. These trucks are flying by and all I can think and feel is he hurt me, he hurt me, he didn't care for me, he hurt me. 

33:55
I didn't know what I was going to do with that, because I had triggers throughout the years. Obviously, for 27 years, there were moments when, you know, I could come, go right back to where I was 27 years earlier. But this one was different. This one hit me in my heart and in my soul. And so for the first two weeks I just I walked around the house wringing my hands, trying to figure out what should I do. Who can I tell? I was a mess. I mean, I was a mess. I finally eventually told my best friend and that began my healing. Finally, for the first time in 27 years, I said the words. 

34:28
I was sexually abused by my pastor. He didn't love me, he didn't care for me. This was a man who took advantage of me in a place that should have been the safest place on earth. The second thing I did was I began to read everything I could on clergy abuse and that really helped me understand that this man groomed me, he manipulated me, he gaslighted me, and, understanding those terms, I could look back and say, oh yeah, the time that he wanted me to babysit and he said this was the reason, when it really wasn't, that was manipulation. So that was another big step forward. And then finally confronting him was huge in my healing Wasn't easy. 

35:05
It was extremely difficult to do, extremely difficult to do. I didn't get the entire satisfaction that I wanted out of the meeting, but what I did get out of that meeting was the fact that I could look him in the eye and say to him I know what you did to me was wrong and you had no right to do it, and that was powerful for me. One of the things that made it easier for me, too, was the fact that I knew he couldn't deny it. So many victims, if they were to confront their abuser, they'd get answers like well, I don't know what you're talking about, or that was so long ago, or you're confused or I didn't mean to do whatever you think I thought I did. He couldn't do any of that. He had to sit there and admit that what he did to me was sexual abuse. 

35:46 - Stacey (Host)
So you decided to go confront him. You. So you decided to go confront him. You called him. You drove to his house. Like what. Like what was that I hired? 

35:55 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
a private investigator, okay. So that person found him and my investigator was the go-between, so he called him and said we're going to be meeting you on this day. 

36:03 - Stacey (Host)
And then you, where did you meet? Like a diner, Like what happened? 

36:07 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
Well, that's another interesting part of the story. So I have to throw a little levity into this. So I just out of the air picked a date. I said October 24th is the date I want to meet him. Oddly enough, he told my investigator well, I can't meet that day. His supervisor said I can't make meet that day either, because that's Minister Appreciation Day. 

36:29 - Mark (Host)
The irony of it all. The irony of it all, lord, oh my gosh, what are the chances? 

36:34 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
I helped firm to that date. I told my investigator no, that's the date I picked, I don't care what day it is. My abuser then asked is it okay if I bring my current wife to? My response was I don't care if he brings the queen of england, he as long as he's there. The other thing that he insisted upon was he did not want me to meet him at the church. At this point I'm still nervous about whether he'll meet me. I was scared about meeting him again. I thought I'll turn to be 16 all over again and he'll manipulate me like he always has. So I didn't push on that, but I wish that I had. He was worried about people wondering who I was and why I was having this meeting at the church. So we actually ended up meeting a room in the Holiday Inn, which is the same. He was caught in a Holiday Inn. When he said a Holiday Inn, I'm thinking what's he trying? I thought is he trying to mess with me? 

37:31 - Mark (Host)
Why did he agree to meet with you? Like what was the premise that the investigator brought to him that said hey, sandy wants to meet with you. Why? 

37:39 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
Okay. So keep in mind he's a narcissist. One of the things narcissists hate the most is being exposed of who they are and what they've done. They have put this persona out there, that he's this great guy and loves everybody, and blah blah blah. So he thinks he can control the situation by meeting with me. I think he really believed that. If he threw his mercy out there please I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done it blah, blah blah, that would appease me. He was you know. I'm so sorry, but then he went into excuses. I did this because I had an alcoholic father. I did this because I'm a sexual addict. I did this because it was who I was at the time, but I've changed. 

38:19 - Stacey (Host)
When you did confront him is that when your healing journey really began. And I know you also wrote this book that we're going to talk about and show here, and it's Let Me Pray Upon you. But in the book you've crossed out, let me pray with you. We love the title. 

38:34 - Mark (Host)
We were talking about the title and the cover of the book. 

38:36 - Stacey (Host)
So it's let me pray upon you, but you've kind of scribbled out let me pray with you. 

38:40 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
So were those the two things that really helped you on your healing journey I would say um, there were some multiple things and it took me probably three, four years to feel really good and safe about myself and to be able to feel like I could trust and use my voice. Um, the education was huge. The support of my friends was unbelievable. I had my book club. They, they, they brought a box of tissues every time we met because I was going to be telling my story. I told my story in bits and pieces to my friends because, again, I'm afraid of being judged and I'm afraid if I tell too much they're going to be overwhelmed, and so I would let little bits out to see how they reacted. And they were nothing but great. But victims are afraid. You know, of how much we tell of our story. So that, and then the book was huge. 

39:31
I ended up writing the book because I was frustrated by the fact that people would say things like well, I don't know why these people wait so long to tell. If they, if it really happened, they would have told at the time. Or I don't understand why they just don't get over it, why they keep having to talk about it, or why they're in counseling for years. I was so frustrated by that, and then I was also concerned that victims needed to hear another person's story to relate to, and so I wrote it for those two reasons. And writing it was very difficult because I had to relive every single memory and moment. You know, it's one thing to simply say I was sexually abused by my youth pastor, but you don't know my story until I tell you he hit me. You know he did this, he did that, and some of the parts, if you read the book are very can be embarrassing. 

40:16
And there was one part that I thought, do I put this in or not? And I thought, no, I put it in because this is what. How much control he had over me and I didn't have any control over what I was doing. He he, manipulated and abused me and that's why it's so hard for people to get out of relationships like this, married to abusive men. They're totally under that person's control. So the healing was, you know, a lot of reasons, but I had a very, very supportive husband, and the other thing that helped is I went back to my former church that kicked me out. I said I know none of the elders that are there now were the ones that were the reason I had to leave, but this church needs to take responsibility for what they did to me 27 years ago. 

41:02 - Stacey (Host)
Good for you, and they agreed. 

41:04 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
And that was huge. And I so appreciate that they did that, because some churches would say this has nothing to do with us. This happened a long time ago. 

41:13 - Mark (Host)
You grew up in the church, but the institution and the people that you put your faith in betrayed you. How did that impact your faith? 

41:23 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
You know I've often said many times the reaction of that church and how they handled it probably had more of an impact on my life than the actual abuse, because it took something away from me that was very dear and very precious, something that I could go to a church and feel such joy, such peace and such trust. I don't. I no longer have that. I didn't lose my faith, say it changed, but I can't be comfortable in a church any longer. This was a man that had sex with me in his office at the church. It's a place that became totally contaminated for me, and I know that all churches are not like this. I know churches are some good churches. There's absolutely pastors and priests and rabbis who are faithful to their calling. But because of my trauma I can't bring that back. I can't trust that institution as a body in a building, and so it affected my spiritual life greatly. That's probably the saddest part for me is that he took something so precious for me that I can never get back. 

42:25 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, I get that. 

42:27 - Stacey (Host)
You said that you've spoken to a lot of victims, so how have you sort of taken this horrible event and things that have happened to you and turned it around to help others with the book, of course, but then also just speaking? 

42:43 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
So one of the things that, um, I did, when I went on the internet I found a ministry called the hope of survivors and I contacted them and I still volunteer with them. In fact, I was in dallas at a conference with them and so I have contact through victims with them, um, and since my book came out, I've had a lot of contact with victims. Like I'm not a counselor, but I do do peer support. I support them through my own story and my own experiences to help them see how they may be able to navigate their own healing. I also serve on the board of Council on Child Abuse, which is here located in Cincinnati, and we go into the schools and teach about sexual abuse and bullying, and that's a great organization. 

43:27 - Mark (Host)
Is there anything you would potentially say to somebody that 16 year old that's watching this, that that person who might suspect that they are in the situation or approaching the situation that you found yourself in at such a young age to help them prevent it? 

43:49 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
So the first thing I tell any victim is what is happening to you and what is being done to you is not your fault. Nothing you did or said it could have done would have prevented this. This was a perpetrator who was clever and trapped you. He targeted you, he looked at you and found you and then he trapped you. So it's not your fault. Secondly, tell someone and I say that coming from someone who for 27 years didn't tell anyone, right, don't. 

44:13
If it's clergy abuse, don't tell someone in the church. You need to find someone outside of the church to tell you're speaking. Your truth will help you in healing. And I know how hard that can be. It's very difficult, but you tell until someone believes you. Secondly, thirdly, I would say trust who you are as much as you can to say I want out of this and remember this is a codependency. So it's understandable that you're not going to want to hurt your abuser, and that's another reason victims don't get out of the religion. They don't want to hurt their perpetrator. They have a connection with him. What he is doing to you is wrong, it's not right and he has no right to do it. 

44:57 - Stacey (Host)
Wow, I hope someone hears that and does what you're telling them to do. But likewise and I know it's so difficult parents always blame themselves for stuff like this. After the fact, I don't know what your mother said to you when she found out this happened. Is there anything that you could say to parents? Was there any hints? Was there any way that someone could have known? 

45:19
it's a good question and seen this somehow like because I know parents are gonna listen to this and say, oh my God, right, how do I know this is not happening to my child? 

45:28 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, it can make me cry just thinking about it getting emotional Right. 

45:33 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
The first thing I would say is do not give automatic trust to anyone that includes a family member Just because he's a priest, a rabbi, whatever a Sunday school teacher. You don't automatically trust because of the position he holds. And that's the problem we have in the church. We don't look for the red flags in these people because we just assume they're not doing anything. A behavior in an individual with your child that makes you uncomfortable but you dismiss it because of who they are. Would you accept that same behavior in your neighbor down the street if you have someone who's hugging your child too much or giving them gifts or spending too much time with them? If your neighbor were doing that, would you not think, okay, wait a minute, that's too much and he needs to back off? So be aware of the fact that just because of who he is doesn't negate that something could be going wrong. The other thing is watch for how much attention they're paying to your child. If they're being singled out a little bit more and maybe your child is is shy and being bullied and this person is really bringing them out of their shell, that's fine, but there cannot be this constant attention on your child and parents are also trust your gut. If you feel like something's off, trust your gut. But you know what happens. They're afraid of offending someone. They're afraid of going to that person and saying you know, I know you're spending a lot of time with my child, but it's uncomfortable for me. I'm not accusing you of anything. I don't want you to misunderstand this my concern, but for my own comfort I would prefer that you not. Whatever it is you're observing, that's okay to do, that You're the parent. 

47:16
The other thing is no adult should ever be texting a child for any reason at all. So do not allow your child to have any context of texting. Think about texting as a phone call. So if your coach let's say the coach says oh, time of the practice has changed, so he texts the child the next time, the text is oh, you know, I thought you did a really great job in the game and I think you're a special kid. Then he texts again about something it continues to build. It's that's that building part about. If it were a phone call and this coach is calling your house two to three times a day wanting to talk to your child about something, you would think why does he keep calling my kid, but because he's texting it he gets away with it. So no texting between an adult and a child. If an adult needs to text a child, he needs to put the parent on the text chain. If he needs to tell the team that the time times of practice have changed, you put the entire team on the text chain. 

48:12
That that's a big one for me, because we had a priest that was removed because he was texting a child. There was nothing in it, but the kid felt uncomfortable and he went to his parents and said priest so-and-so was texting me and it kind of felt weird. He and he went to his parents and said priest so-and-so is texting me and it kind of felt weird. He was removed, went to another parish but he was removed from that parish because texting is not appropriate between an adult and a child. So those are just some of the things. But keep in mind, these men are clever. They go under the guise of helping your child, but you're the parent and look for those red flags if you need to. Not to be accusatory, just simply address the issue in a non-threatening way. Say look, you know we have a problem with how many gifts we give our kids and I don't like the fact that you brought in candy, because that's how they started. 

49:00 - Stacey (Host)
Yikes, yikes. So what is next for you, Sandy? 

49:04 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
I'm going to continue this work of advocacy. I love speaking. As you can probably tell, I'm going to enjoy my life, which for 27 years I couldn't, because I had that secret hanging over me. I was always. He was always in my mind. I could hear in the back of my mind don't ever tell. Anytime I thought someone was going to find out. I fear that my friends would judge me differently. So for 27 years I couldn't really enjoy my life the way I deserve to enjoy it. There is happiness on the other side of your abuse. Don't let your abuse define your life. It'll always be a part of your life. Don't let it define your life? 

49:43 - Mark (Host)
Have you closed the book on him in your life? Does it bother you that at some level, he won? Do you ever think about him? Is there any time you revisit the past and let it affect the present? 

49:57 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
I do at times. That would just be ludicrous to think that this is oh, I'm happy on my way. I have triggers still. I still have some nightmares I wake up is, oh, I'm happy on my way, I have triggers still. I still have some nightmares. I wake up in the morning. So he's on my mind then. I don't look at it as winning or losing. I did expose him. I did expose him for who he was, this wolf in sheep's clothing. But the thing about that is and I hung on to anger for a long time as long as I was hanging on to the anger, as long as I was hanging on to the sadness I felt he was always a part of my life. I mean, I remember waking up one morning just so angry that the church I was more angry at the church, actually that the church was not doing anything about this and then I thought he's waking up today and I bet you he hasn't given me one thought at all. 

50:45
And here I am ruining my day thinking about him. So as long as I held on to that, he was all a part of my life. He was continuing to control my thoughts, and so, for me, forgiveness was letting go. I was not going to. You know, I wanted consequences, I wanted justice, but I wasn't going to get those things, so I couldn't let them control the rest of my life. And, yes, how do you forgive something you can't forget? How do you forgive something for an apology you're never going to get? So those things weren't going to happen, and so I had to accept that they wouldn't and I had to move on. But yes, I still have triggers. I still have moments of mostly sadness that someone that would so deliberately hurt another individual. So, yeah, like I said, it's always part of my life, but I've learned to not let it control my life. 

51:42 - Stacey (Host)
I love it. You are so brave to come out even 27 years later. Look what you've done and I really hope that. And are doing, and are doing, and hopefully you're impacting victims now and this podcast can help impact someone in a positive way. 

51:59 - Sandy Phillips Kirkham (Guest)
Yeah, I appreciate so much you're allowing this forum because so many times I've had several podcasters say to me well, that's a topic that I really don't think we want to discuss. I usually write back and tell them the very reason that you think we shouldn't discuss it is why we should discuss it. But I respect their response. 

52:15 - Mark (Host)
Yeah Well, if you're willing to discuss it. That should be the barometer right, exactly. Thank you for your candor. Thank you for your honesty. 

52:24 - Stacey (Host)
This candor. 

52:24 - Mark (Host)
Thank you for your honesty, this has been, uh, an enlightening conversation, thought-provoking, for sure, all right. Well, thank you so much and thank you guys all for watching. 

52:28 - Stacey (Host)
Thank you you're still here. You're still listening. Thanks for listening to the gurus and game changers podcast while you're here. If you enjoyed it, please take a minute to rate this episode and leave us a quick review. We want to know what you thought of the show and what you took from it podcast While you're here. If you enjoyed it, please take a minute to rate this episode and leave us a quick review. We want to know what you thought of the show and what you took from it and how it might have helped you. We read and appreciate every comment. Thanks, see you next week.