A Father's Quest for Proof of Afterlife: From Skeptic to Believer | Ep 076

🗣️ After losing his daughter in a tragic accident, Robert Ginsberg went from complete skeptic to founding the Forever Family Foundation, which has spent over 20 years scientifically testing mediums. 

In this riveting episode, Ginsberg from the Netflix Show Surviving Death, shares compelling evidence for life after death - from dream visitations and physical manifestations to electronic voice phenomena and near-death experiences.

Discover why only 27 mediums have passed his rigorous certification process in two decades, how to spot fraudulent psychics, and hear Ginsberg's personal stories that transformed his skepticism into belief. Even our skeptical host Mark finds his certainty shaken by the evidence presented!

Key Takeaways:

🗣️  How Ginsberg's wife predicted their daughter's accident before it happened
🗣️  Scientific evidence for consciousness surviving physical death
🗣️  Why 90% of self-proclaimed mediums can't do what they claim
🗣️  The difference between psychic information and actual communication with the deceased
🗣️  How Ginsberg's deceased wife gave him a sign he couldn't deny
🗣️  Why near-death experiences offer the strongest evidence for an afterlife

Whether you're a believer, skeptic, or somewhere in between, this conversation offers thought-provoking insights about what might await us all beyond this life.

Chapters:

02:33 - Introduction and Mark's Skepticism
03:30 - Robert Ginsberg Joins the Conversation
03:47 - How Robert's Journey Began: His Daughter's Accident
05:18 - The Problem with Unregulated Mediums
06:39 - Robert's First Powerful Dream Visitations
08:24 - The Seven-Year Journey to Acceptance
09:21 - Signs from the Other Side: The Kitchen Lights
11:13 - Stacey's Dream Visitations from Her Father
12:48 - Robert's First Authentic Medium Reading
15:49 - The Medium Certification Process
17:24 - Forever Family Foundation's Work
18:21 - How Medium Readings Help with Grief
19:19 - The Dangers of Fraudulent Mediums
21:12 - Psychic Information vs. Spirit Communication
23:25 - Electronic Voice Phenomena Explained
25:54 - Communication from Robert's Late Wife
28:12 - Mark's Skepticism Beginning to Shift
28:46 - Near-Death Experiences as Evidence
30:08 - Reincarnation Research
31:01 - Deathbed Visions
32:28 - Heaven, Hell, and Self-Judgment
33:48 - Apparitions vs. Ghosts
35:11 - Robert's Daughter Appearing in Her Old Room
39:24 - How Spirits Learn to Communicate
40:38 - Are Deceased Loved Ones Always With Us?
42:37 - Stacey's Experience During Her Illness
43:38 - Being Open to Signs from the Other Side
44:27 - Forever Family Foundation Resources
45:04 - Robert's Final Thoughts on Continuing the Work
46:11 - Mark Reflects on His Changing Perspective
46:56 - Closing and Thank You to Listeners

📲 Connect with Our Hosts:
Stacey: https://www.instagram.com/staceymgrant/
Mark: https://www.instagram.com/mark_lubragge_onair/

⭐️ Watch/Subscribe to Gurus and Game Changers on Youtube: www.youtube.com/@UCsRyuQWlLAYzM4IyJlF2IWQ 
⭐️ Listen on any podcast audio platform

📲 Connect with Robert Ginsberg
About Robert Ginsberg: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B08RL555C7
Website: https://foreverfamilyfoundation.org/
Books: My Life Here and There, The Medium Explosion https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B08RL555C7

Visit foreverfamilyfoundation.org to learn more about Robert Ginsberg's work and scientific research on life after death.

Transcript

00:01 - Stacey (Host)
Yo, mark, yo Yo, that was amazing. Oh my God, what a mind-blowing episode. 

00:09 - Mark (Host)
The most mind-blowing episode we've had. 

00:11 - Stacey (Host)
You think so? Yeah, we've had a lot of really good ones we have. But For you it was. 

00:16 - Mark (Host)
This is not new news to me? 

00:18 - Stacey (Host)
No, I am skeptical, Like Robert Ginsburg didn't tell me anything I didn't already sort of believe. He just kind of confirmed it. 

00:24 - Mark (Host)
With scientific evidence. 

00:25 - Stacey (Host)
But you were a huge skeptic. 

00:26 - Mark (Host)
I'm still a bit of a skeptic, but there's no denying what this gentleman brought to us today. He was a skeptic himself. Yes, he lost his daughter tragically in an accident and he did not believe that a medium could ever connect with her Right, so much so that he formed a foundation, formed a certification program that for over 20 years has been testing mediums charlens. 

00:52 - Stacey (Host)
No, some of them. Some of them are fraudulent. 

00:55 - Mark (Host)
Fraudulent and we're not going to tell you the number, but in the 20 plus years he's been testing you're not going to believe? How many have proven to have what he believes is an innate born? 

01:07 - Stacey (Host)
Well, his story is so cool because his daughter died and his son was hurt very badly in an accident and he really wanted to see if she was still somewhere and he was such a skeptic so as he talked to more and more mediums, he wanted to make sure that they actually were telling him the truth. So he came up with the certification process, which is crazy, and he got his validation. 

01:32 - Mark (Host)
And that's part of the proof, the stories he tells. 

01:34 - Stacey (Host)
And then his wife too, who actually predicted the accident was going to happen, because she was very intuitive. 

01:41 - Mark (Host)
And there's a story of a little girl across a bedroom, oh my gosh. And there's a story of a little girl across a bedroom. 

01:45 - Stacey (Host)
Oh my gosh, there's so much, and it's not just about that. 

01:47 - Mark (Host)
He tells tons of stories that helped him validate what he's been trying to validate that some people have this gift. 

01:56 - Stacey (Host)
I mean we've all had people who have died in our life that we really want to talk to and I think the desperation and wanting to talk to those people I know for myself, my dad especially, I mean it just makes you want to believe that someone can tell you or someone can talk to them and then talk back to you, or that the dreams that you have are really true and what Robert's saying after scientific evidence? Has shown him that they are around. 

02:19 - Mark (Host)
More than two decades of study and research and experimentation. Yeah, I have like a huge smile on my face right now. This is awesome. It was so great. Thank you for bringing him to us, mark. You guys are going to absolutely love Bob Ginsberg. 

02:33 - Stacey (Host)
Hi, I'm Stacey. 

02:34 - Mark (Host)
And I am Mark, and this is the Gurus at Game Changers podcast. Welcome everybody. So I have a confession that I have not stated publicly ever in my life, and that is I can speak to your loved ones who have passed on and I will tell you your mother she loves you, she's in a great place, she's very proud of you, she's watching over you. Your father he was a stronger man. He didn't. He didn't show love the way your mother did, but he loved you in his best way and he also is very proud of you. That will be $500. Thank you. What is this? This is me expressing my skepticism about the topic, one of the many topics that we're going to cover today. 

03:18
You're going to offend our guest Today's guest, who I hope I'm not offending, is Robert Ginsburg. He's, for over 20 years, been proving or disproving whether or not mediums truly exist. Robert, welcome to the show, buddy. 

03:30 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
Listen your intro there. That's exactly what I've been doing for the last 20 years. I heard a lot of that bullshit. 

03:39 - Stacey (Host)
And I think it's a shame because so many people really want to know. 

03:41 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
You want it. 

03:42 - Stacey (Host)
I would love to actually go back to your story and why you even started on this journey. 

03:47 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
Going back 22 years ago. I was a much bigger skeptic than Mark. The morning that my kids were involved in a car accident. My wife, she sat up in bed 3.30 in the morning and she was trembling and she was just staring and she was like ash and white. I said what's the matter? And she said our lives are going to be changed forever today Make a long story short I watched over my three kids. 

04:13
One was going back to college when I already started her college career and my youngest one was working in a part-time job and I let my guard down at night. We had two cars. My son and my daughter were driving one. We passed an accident on the way home and you know it was them. My son was in a coma, my daughter didn't survive her injuries, but I didn't know if I was going to lose my son too. And then, after it became clear that he was going to recover and he came out of the coma and everything I remembered that night, that morning. So wait a second, how did she know? Because she knew. I mean, how could you explain it? And that started me on a quest to find out how she knew. And, of course, the other thing that I wanted to find out. Is it possible that my daughter still exists in some form, and is there any credible research by credentialed people that suggests? 

05:11 - Mark (Host)
that that journey is what led you. You probably encountered a lot of people that you realized were false. 

05:18 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
Think about it. They're dealing with people in severe grief most times, and there's no regulation. I mean, there's no licensing, there's no proficiency guidelines, there's no ethical guidelines, there's no continuing education, there's no licensing. And so, as you manage, tomorrow you can hang out a sign on your house. Mark the medium, start charging $500 and sitting with people. 

05:41
The reason that a lot of people are unable to figure out whether the medium is telling the truth is that they're so desperate to hear from their loved one that they make things fit Sure. My first book was called the Medium Explosion. I didn't write it as an expose to disprove mediumship. It was the opposite. I wanted to show that 10 to 15% of the mediums out there are so incredible and so specific and so evidential and I'm talking about, with stuff that you can't research that they have the ability to change lives. I've seen thousands of people over the years that are able to live their life with meaning and purpose again after getting, you know, a very powerful medium rating. I'm pissed off that there's just so many that can't do what they claim. 

06:29 - Stacey (Host)
Right as you were trying to find out if you could reach your daughter. Do you remember the moment when you actually did and you knew it was real? 

06:39 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
The theory is that, you know, we're an entity of thought and energy once we move to this other dimension and that we can send our thoughts to other beings, even across dimensions. That gets at the psychokinesis, mind affecting matter and so forth. But in any event, the theory is that when we're in certain stages of sleep and our chatter mind is at rest, that the conduit opens up where they can project thoughts and sometimes even materialize. You know, in our dreams and in a dream visitation unlike a regular dream, which is, as you know, know, regular dreams are like disjointed and they don't make much sense and they're all over the place and you forget them as soon as you wake up a dream visitation is very tactile. You could hug your loved one, you could kiss them, you could have a conversation with them, you could smell them. So me, I, I, you know, with no intuitive ability, I, you know, with no intuitive ability over the course of five years, I had 74 dream visitations from my daughter and I journaled, at the advice of my wife. I journaled every single one of them and each one was powerful. Wow, that was my connection, you know. 

07:58
At the same time, my wife, who was very, you know, intuitive and receptive and knowing, had this inner knowledge that I didn't possess. She was getting all these signs and communications like crazy. I knew that in all the years we were together she never, ever, ever lied to me. So I trusted her implicitly and I was sort of living vicariously through, you know, her connection, her implicitly, and I was sort of living vicariously through, you know, her connection After death. 

08:24
Communications are attached to a knowing. In other words, it's not vague hope and it's, you know, it's not really even belief, it's just you have no doubt in your mind that this is. You know, I had no doubt in my mind that my daughter was communicating with me and this is from somebody at that time who didn't believe in any of this, you know, you know, so it was. You know, it was powerful. With all these things that were happening. It took me seven years to relent, you know, after I read, literally, you know, a thousand books on all these, these subjects and I still, you know, was not convinced. And after seven years, I, you know, one day I just said okay, schmuck you gotta, you gotta relent under the weight of the evidence. 

09:09
If you want to approach this, you know it's a scientific endeavor. So I reached that point where I don't have any doubt anymore. 

09:16 - Mark (Host)
I'm also not afraid of death. What is the messaging your daughter was giving you and what signs were? Is your wife getting? 

09:21 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
from her. I'll give you an example. You know, we were part of a, a netflix docu-series called surviving death and I gave uh netflix, uh, a video that they that they aired. My wife and I were talking about my daughter, we were coming back from someplace. We walked into the house and in our kitchen we had a series. I think there were either nine or twelve hi-hat lights. And I walked into the house and in our kitchen we had a series. I think there were either nine or twelve hi-hat lights. And I walked into the kitchen and it was like the fourth of july, I mean the lights, you know, every light was on and off and you're crazy. And I watched for 10 minutes. 

09:54
My wife took out her camera, started filming and it stopped and three minutes later it started again. So to show you, mark would appreciate this, nine o'clock the next morning I had an electrician at the house and I had him take down each one of the 12 hi-hat lights to inspect them and he didn't find anything wrong. So then I had him take apart the light switches themselves and he didn't find anything wrong. And we hadn't been living in that house for 10 years, nothing had ever happened like that, and we were there 10 years after that and nothing like that ever happened, so that I can accept, because in my mind I had to rule out the physical explanations, so I could accept that this was, you know. And then the timing we were just talking about her, you know we were kind of sad. You know we walked into the kitchen. Then that happened. One point she was sending us what we term Morse code, you know which, which is kind of a long story, probably too long to tell you, but they can, you know, manipulate energy. 

10:54 - Stacey (Host)
That's why things like whites and also these synchronicities, In terms of dream visitation yeah, lost my dad in 2010 and we were really, really, really close, so I always feel like he's either and we've talked about this before- and you don't necessarily believe this is the case, but I always feel like he's maybe dropping a penny, dropping a dime, whatever. 

11:13
But he does visit me in dreams and usually he doesn't say anything. He just kind of stands there in the dream and and I'm like, oh, dad's here, dad's here, and I get all excited. Recently he I ran up to him and I said, dad, are you with me? Are you with me? And he said I'm always with you. And then he disappeared and I I know it sounds like way hopeful, but I truly believe that he's around. I have family members who are struggling and he always tells them, told them to listen to me. So I'm like, okay, who do I need to talk to now? Dad, right, yeah. 

11:44 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
Yeah, and you know, and I know you're human and you question yourself, of course, just my imagination, you know whatever. I once did a survey. Well, I asked our membership in the foundation. I asked him one question Given the choice, would you rather communicate with your loved one, your deceased loved one, directly, like in a dream, visitation or whatever, or through the services of a medium? Now, I thought when I composed that question that the overwhelming majority would say directly, right, but it was the opposite. They said through a medium. And when I started to probe that a little bit, there were two reasons. One, a lot of people are fearful because they're taught to be fearful of things that they can't see or perceive with their physical senses. And two, what we you know what I was just saying about your experience like if, if they get a direct communication, they're going to start questioning it was this a product of my imagination, my grief? Whereas if they got it through a professional, a third party, then they can trust the information. So it's interesting. 

12:48 - Stacey (Host)
So you never, at any point, had a medium talk to you as your daughter. 

12:53 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
I did. I went to. I didn't want to go because I didn't believe in any of this. But my wife dragged me to a well-known medium. She said three things to me. One of them she said I had this thing with my daughter that every month she'd come up to me and she'd say come on, dad, admit it, I'm your favorite. I said, bailey, I'm not going to say that you're my favorite, I love all my children. I said I'm not going to say it For years every month, come on, admit it, I love all my children. I said I can't, I'm not going to say it For years. Every month, come on, admit your favorite. 

13:28
I've only been to the cemetery twice in 22 years because I don't believe that she's there. The one time that I went, I was alone and I sat down, you know, by her stone and I said all right, bailey, I admit it, you know you were my favorite. And the medium says to me dad, your daughter wants me to tell you that. She knows that you, she was your favorite, you know. So that was like wow, cause I? I just said those words 24 hours early. That got my attention. Then, um, my turned out that my daughter, even though she was only 15 years old. Uh was a prolific writer. I didn't even know it, that she was talking with her friends, but she was writing essays and poetry and all sorts of things, so a lot of it concerning life after death. And after she passed, my wife and my other daughter found all these writings on the computer which we published into a book. And the next thing the medium says to me oh, and she says she's really happy that you discovered all of her writings you know. 

14:23
So I said, okay, that's, that's two. And and the last thing was she was a couple of days before we went to the medium. Uh, my wife woke me up and she smelled smoke, you know. And we had this large home on three levels and and me, I'm just, I don't smell anything. And she went down to the basement checked, permeated by the smell of smoke, but not nothing. First floor, whole thing, nothing. Second floor smelled like smoke, you know nothing. Uh, so eventually she went back to bed. Third thing the medium said oh, and your daughter wants me to tell you that you'll know when she's around by the smell of smoke, you know. So, all right, so here's somebody that doesn't believe in any of this stuff. It's gonna. I'm trying to think so the whole way home from manhattan to long island, my mind is racing, trying to figure out the trick, you know, and I couldn't figure out the trick. It was nothing that she could research, these were personal things that nobody else knew. Did it convince me? No, but it. 

15:24 - Mark (Host)
It opened me up to continuing my, my search to find the answers I think my skepticism lies with the 90 percent that you say can't do what they claim. That's where my skepticism lives. Do I believe it's possible? I do. I just think, maybe, like you do and like you've proven over 20 years with your mediumship certification program, that it's rare that somebody can yeah I mean you know. 

15:49 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
So you know we've been uh, granting certification to mediums that undergo extensive you know studies and you know we've been doing it for 20 years and we have 27 mediums that we certified in 20 years. That's a little more than one a year. That's a small amount Because I have to evaluate 10 mediums to possibly find one Right. You know they do it at a high level. 

16:14 - Stacey (Host)
What's your evaluation process? 

16:15 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
First they submit answers to certain you know questions that are designed to uncover any red flags. Then, if that looks okay, we send them an extensive application. It's an eight-page application and when I send out the application, oddly enough only one out of 10 that I send it to returns it, because they think it's going to be one of these deals where they send us $100. 

16:40
We're going to send them a certificate like a male reverend, you know, you know and when they see it's serious stuff, they back off, um, and then eventually, if they make it to the, to the evaluation stage, they do a series of readings. Uh, for five different sitters who were trained in scoring methods and trained in mediumship, um, and there's five different scoring methods and trained in mediumship, and there's five different scoring methods and they have to exceed the guidelines in each one of the five. 

17:09 - Stacey (Host)
So you're not going to pass unless you can really do it, and there's only 27 that you've certified 27 in 20 years 27 in 20 years. So we want to know, robust, what's the name of your certification? So if we want to talk to a medium, we have to. It's on the website Forever Family. Forever Family. 

17:24 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
The thing is, a lot of the mediums that we certified over the years, you know, partly because of their association, you know, with us, have gone on to become famous. You know rich and famous, and you know what happens, then you do. Why should I do readings? 

17:42 - Mark (Host)
right some stars. That's not cool yeah. 

17:46 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
So what happens is that we have the need to keep identifying new people that can do this, because if you're in grief and you want a reading with a medium and you call the medium and there's a four-year waiting list and it costs $700 for a reading, that doesn't do you much good. It's funny. 

18:07 - Mark (Host)
You mentioned grief. I was going to ask you when you had those three statements from that medium about your daughter or that your daughter was saying what did that do? I know it was many years later, right past her passing. What did that do for your grief? Was there? 

18:21 - Stacey (Host)
closure Was there excitement, what was? 

18:25 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
it. Yeah, well that that, that that reading was actually only about a year after my passing, you know, and and it did make me feel good. I mean, it gave me hope for the first time. I was, I was in bad shape, I mean I I went to sleep every night hoping that I wouldn't wake up in the morning. I would pray to the universe that I would have a heart attack and die, and that was the same time that I saw the medium. So that was the first glimmer of hope and comfort from that. So, yeah, it did make me feel good. 

18:59 - Stacey (Host)
On the flip side of that, though, it could be dangerous if you have a reading from a medium who is fraudulent, right, I mean, they can say stuff and you hold on to that, and what can we do about that? Is there any sort of like governing body or something that we could sort of get them arrested, or something? 

19:19 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
Yeah, there's nothing. That's why we're doing the certification. I wish I had the. At least in some other countries you have to at least have a license, you know, like a business license. But here, you know, it's absolutely nothing. 

19:31
But you're right, having let's say you're on the fence, you don't know whether this is real or this is just a crock, and you go to a medium and you get a crappy reading you know the old general, you know stuff. And you walk away from that reading saying just you know, in worse shape than when you went. You know this is bullshit and it's, it's not real and my loved one is really dead and um. So yeah, you're exactly right. It can be tremendously harmful and that's why we take this so seriously. 

20:05 - Mark (Host)
It's, you know, I think it's my mother, my sisters, my cousins. I know a lot of people, as I'm sure you do that have gone to mediums and had readings. 

20:13 - Stacey (Host)
Did you ever hear one yourself? 

20:14 - Mark (Host)
Oh, yeah, so there's definitely the confirmation bias. You say that I want that to apply to my loved one. Therefore it applies in my head because I want to feel better about it. So part of me is saying so what's the harm like if you walk away thinking that you're, you talk through your to your dad, through me, and I was just making shit up, but you feel better. What if it's dangerous stuff they're making up? No, no, I get that right? 

20:39 - Stacey (Host)
most people probably aren. It's dangerous stuff they're making up. No, no, I get that Right. 

20:42 - Mark (Host)
Most people probably aren't making that up. They're probably just saying what I said at the opening, like hey, he's in a great place. 

20:47 - Stacey (Host)
He loves you. Let's ask Bob what they say. 

20:49 - Mark (Host)
What do they say? 

20:52 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
Well, you know, it's a valid argument, you know, and a lot of people have by that, though I didn't. Yeah, it's like, it's like when people it's like, it's like when people would say to me well you know your daughter lives on. You know in your heart well yeah that wasn't good. I didn't want to know. She lived on in my memories. 

21:12 - Stacey (Host)
I want to know that she lives on period I remember one other time and I won't keep going on with my stories where I was sitting in a circle with eric, who is my husband, who's the tech guy here, who is like a huge skeptic. We were sitting in a circle with a bunch of like 30 other people and she, after talking to other people who were floored with what she said, she looked at me and pointed at me and said what does the number 12 mean to you? This episode is brought to you by Mainline Studios and the Podcast Factory where great content feels right at home, located in and back to the time. So in that scenario I'm like this person knows something or has heard something, right? 

22:13 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
Yeah, and also it gets more complicated because there's psychic information. You know that a person, a medium could get read your energy. You know what about reading your mind? 

22:26 - Stacey (Host)
and getting the information. 

22:27 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
She knows 12, you know whatever. So that doesn't prove that it's coming from a discarnate source. 

22:33 - Stacey (Host)
Okay, okay. 

22:35 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
So if I'm, you know, evaluating a medium, and the medium says to the sitter did you just paint your bedroom? 

22:41 - Stacey (Host)
Oh, medium. 

22:42 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
And the medium says to the sitter, did you just paint your bedroom. And let's say you know and not talking about anybody in spirit, but just saying I mean it's a piece of psychic information and which is great. Let's say you just did paint your bedroom and you'd say, wow, it is a great medium, but it doesn't do anything to show that we survive. You know physical death, you know. But then if? But if the medium is bringing through your deceased mom and gives you five or six pieces of strong evidence that says, hey, mom is telling me to tell you that she likes you just painted your bedroom. That's different because she's already established who she's speaking with in the spirit, cool it's complicated. 

23:17 - Mark (Host)
Talk to us about electronic voice phenomena, how people's voices of their loved ones get caught talking to them. 

23:25 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
This has been studied now for you know, probably you know 70 years, but it used to be for some reason by. We don't know how it's done, but people in spirit sometimes are able to imprint their voice onto recording a recording device. It used to be these big reel to reel. You know, you know tape recorders. 

23:50
Now it's your phone and you say, well, how is that possible? They don't have a body, they don't have a voice box, you know, but it's. It's done by some sort of an energy imprint. And so what people do is they turn on their recorder. First they say a little sudden intention to their person in spirit, asking them to come through. They turn on their recorder for maybe 30 seconds and then they shut it off and then they play it back. 

24:21
For some reason, when there is a recording, it's never heard live, but it's heard on playback. Now, you could do this for three, four years and never get one thing. You know, it's not a, but I've listened to so many uh of these things over the years and and researchers classify them. I mean, if, if I play it back for you and it sounds like gibberish, that's not evidential, you know. But if I play it back for you and and the two of you independently tell me exactly what you heard, uh, that's different. I used to take these recordings and I used to play it for groups of 20 people and I'd give them all a piece of paper and a pen and I'd ask them to write down what they heard. And if 20 out of 20, or 19 out of 20, all heard the same thing. It's hard to argue that our minds are forming it, you know because our minds all work differently. 

25:23
So it's pretty incredible. I've listened to many, many, many over the years. We've had demonstrations with someone. Some people were better at it than others. You know you're sort of acting like a medium when you're yeah it sounds. Mark is sitting there saying this sounds nuts, you know but I think you're getting to him. 

25:41 - Mark (Host)
I can see it I think he's like. I have a hard candy shell. It's hard to get through. 

25:45 - Stacey (Host)
I was going to ask about Fran. You were married for how long? 46 years 46 years and then, unfortunately, during COVID, she passed away. I'm so sorry. 

25:54 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
She passed in 2020. 

25:56 - Stacey (Host)
2020. 

25:57 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
Yeah. 

25:59 - Stacey (Host)
Have you spoken to her? 

26:05 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
She was so intuitive. Have you tried to reach her, to reach her? Well, you know, that's what the first thing everybody said to me you know, because the work that we do, right. You know, after karen died they said well, you are gonna get of all people bombarded. You know, like whatever, and I got. 

26:14
I was getting nothing oh, fran the way I, the way I rationalized it, is that over the years, a friend knew how hardheaded I was, you know, and I was an open-minded skeptic and she had to come up with something that even I could not question. I used to love to hold her hands, you know. They just, you know, sounds corny, but they were soft. I used to grab them to the point where I used to bother her. They were soft, I used to grab them to the point where I used to bother her. I'd be driving in the car, you know, on a trip, and I'd reach over my hand, I'd hold down my thumb for her to grasp it, you know, and every once in a while she'd say all right, enough already. You know, it's like so after she died every time I'm driving, and then I would talk A lot of people I don't know if you ever did, but I would talk out loud to her. 

27:01
You know, I'd be driving and I'd hold out my thumb, you know, saying in my head okay, if it's really you, you know, grab my thumb or grab my hand. I did this every day for three years. Three years go by, I'm driving back from someplace and I try it again and I said, look, I had enough of this. I mean, this is the last time I'm going to ask you know, if this is you like, grab my thumb and all of a sudden my thumb starts to vibrate and I feel something. Grab it and it's moving, and the and the vibration moved all the way up my thumb, you know, and then all the way down my thumb and it continued like that for 10 minutes Now did you pull over? 

27:48 - Stacey (Host)
You weren't driving while this is happening, right? 

27:50 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
I was driving, but it was that was attached to that. Knowing I was talking about at that moment, I had no doubt in my mind that this was her and I thanked her. You know, you know for it. So I think that was her way, because she found something that I wouldn't, I would not question that's incredible. 

28:07 - Stacey (Host)
What do you say to that, mr mark? I have no response oh my goodness, look again. 

28:12 - Mark (Host)
Oh my goodness I think I'm coming to my own personal realization here, that I think my skepticism is born from my disdain for people who take advantage of people to make money. That does not preclude those 27 people from being real, okay. 

28:30 - Stacey (Host)
I'll take that. 

28:31 - Mark (Host)
Although I'm still skeptic. 

28:32 - Stacey (Host)
So yeah. 

28:34 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
And don't forget, it's not only the mediums, it's all the other evidence. You have to look at it collectively. 

28:40 - Stacey (Host)
What's the other evidence? So there's science-based evidence, you said. 

28:46 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
Well, I mean near-death experiences, I think are very evidential. I mean, you have somebody that meets all definition that medical science has for death. They have no brain waves, they have no respiration. They have no brainwaves, they have no respiration, they have no heartbeat, they have no reflexes. Medical science says that they are. You know they're dead, and yet many people that are later resuscitated report clear and lucid thinking with all of these incredible experiences, including leaving their body, and they can come back and tell you everything that went on in the operating room. There are people that have been blind, they've been sightless since birth and yet they leave their bodies and they can tell you all the colors that everybody was wearing and so 

29:27
forth. And there are other things that are common. They talk about seeing deceased relatives, they talk about what the next world is like, they talk about being imbued with, you know, all sorts of knowledge and they find it very difficult to come back and navigate their lives after they're resuscitated, because they've been to the other side, you know, and so there's absolutely. They totally lose all fear of death and a lot of them that come back and they're resuscitated, they are angry, you know, because they're in this beautiful place and they have to come back into this disease-ridden you know body, you know, and feel the pain of it. We were talking about reincarnation. That was the last piece of the puzzle for me. 

30:08
I always found it difficult, you know, because they say that people come back to um to relive their life and I'm like, why the hell would you come back to live a life of poverty or, you know, of disease, you know trouble? The spiritual explanation is that we have a greater soul that's a, it's a composite of all of our previous lives and it knows that there's something that we needed to work on, you know. But from a research point of view, there have been researchers like Ian Stevenson at the University of Virginia, a medical doctor who studied past life memories, you know, of children, you know, and of adults around the world, and the evidence is so compelling and I'm convinced that I don't think that everybody reincarnates. I think it's a choice, but I think the evidence is so compelling. I'm convinced that I don't think that everybody reincarnates. I think it's a choice, but I think the evidence is sufficient to believe that we do. 

31:01
The other thing is deathbed vision. So that's where somebody that's in that window before death that could be right before or two weeks before suddenly uncommunicative, that we're either mentally or physically, you know, not able to do it. And they extend their arms out and they're talking to somebody Very often it's their moms and they start having conversations which you see, their faces light up and people that work in hospice. They'll tell you that's how they know when somebody's getting ready to pass, and that's been studied. The implication of that is that we all have assistance when it's our time to, you know, to move on my dad. 

31:43 - Stacey (Host)
that happened with my dad. He was dying and his mom had died when he was 13. And right before he died he said mom, mom, and he hadn't spoken at all. Yeah, yeah he was incapacitated completely, so yeah, amazing, and I had. 

31:58 - Mark (Host)
I had someone in my family. She got the biggest smile on her face right before she passed. 

32:02 - Stacey (Host)
So it's exactly what you guys are referring to. Death is not a horrible thing, right? 

32:07 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
it just seems like it's not that's what people tell us that, except for the people who are left behind right. Yeah, yeah, I mean they're not grieving. You know we are, you know, Except for the people who are left behind, right, yeah? Yeah, I mean they're not grieving. You know we are. You know, because they know this is just a little blip in a continuum of life. You know, it's the only physical. Somebody once described it as a physical rush. 

32:28 - Mark (Host)
Heaven and hell. Based on your experience, what are we looking at? Do they exist? Is it one thing? Are they man-made? 

32:37 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
No, I don't think there's a heaven and hell and I also don't think that there's a deity that says you go here or you go there. I think it's all based upon self-judgment. You know, near-death experiences talk about having a life review, and their entire life flashes like a movie reel, right, you know, in front of their eyes. May only last like a couple of minutes, but it seems like an eternity. And when they're, when they're reviewing their life, they get to feel all the the compassion and love and good feelings that they bestowed upon others. But they also get to feel all of the actions that where they offended or caused harm to other people, and I would imagine that doesn't feel so good. So I think that what happens is that we go where we belong. You know I mean, if you were a miserable SOB in real life, you're going to be with other miserable SOBs, with other miserable SOBs. You know, if you were somebody that bestowed kindness and exhibited compassion towards others, you'll be with. You know like-minded people. 

33:41 - Stacey (Host)
Off topic. But what about? What about ghosts? Or I know you'd like to say apparitions, not ghosts, like what? What are they? 

33:48 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
Well, you know some people, there are ghosts and apparitions, and then you've heard things like poltergeists. You know, I mean that's. You know that's not actually a conscious entity. It's usually traced back to somebody that's in the house that has, like this unbelievable energy, usually an adolescent. You know, when things start moving, that's psychokinesis mind over matter. Scientists call it recurrent spontaneous psychokinesis. But then there's I don't like the term ghost, but an apparition, because ghost has this fear attached to it. 

34:24
For some reason these discarded entities are able to can't be easy to manifest their energy, to appear in physical form. My daughter Bailey, when we moved from one house to our last house, she was really, really angry. You know, she loved her school, she loved her friends, she loved the house and she loved her bedroom. So we eventually, you know, moved and then every month she'd go to my wife and say you have to drive me back to my old house, I have to see my old room. And you know Fran would say I can't, it's not appropriate, I'm not going to knock on the door and say can we see your old room? Not going to happen. And she was relentless, and you know she must have said it, you know, a hundred times, I have to say, but never did All right. 

35:11
So after bailey passes, one of my wife's first cousins goes to a wedding or some sort of affair. My wife's first cousin happened to be friends, good friends, with the woman who bought her old home and she said can I? First she expressed her condolences because it was real, you know to my sort of my wife's cousin and she said can I talk to you? Yeah, she said I have to tell you that my daughter, her daughter, which was the same age as my daughter, was had bailey's room you know, it was a loft room, was kind of a cool room and her daughter, who had never had a bad dream or never had any experience, came down um in the early evening and told her mom that she just saw a young girl walk across her room. She wasn't afraid of it, she just it was a matter of fact. 

36:00
And the mother said well, you know, you must have had a bad dream, you know. And she said, mom, I wasn't sleeping, you know I was awake. And she said well, you know, go up and we'll talk about it in the morning. And then the morning came and the family was sitting around the breakfast table and and news day, the, the newspaper in long island, was sitting on on a table. Um and uh, on the front page of the newspaper was the accident that my kids were at. As it turned out, that vision that she saw of my daughter happened 15 minutes after my daughter was pronounced dead. 

36:37
So okay, so I stepped back from that, as my open mind is skeptic and I said where would be the first place? He would go and free of the body. She was obsessed with this right and her and this woman's daughter, who never had an experience in her whole life, just happened to see a girl walk. You know, even you know me. I have to step back from that. You know, just logically, the most logical explanation is that my daughter appeared and walked across the room. 

37:09 - Stacey (Host)
So it's just a transference of energy that happens when someone passes, so it's just a transference of energy that happens when someone passes. 

37:14 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
Yeah, maybe Some people are able to do it and some people are not. 

37:20 - Mark (Host)
But in her case it's something to be feared Well if a little girl walks across my bedroom, there's a lot to be feared. 

37:28 - Stacey (Host)
Let me tell you. 

37:30 - Mark (Host)
God bless her for not being scared. 

37:34 - Stacey (Host)
She's more afraid than I am. It's a feeling, right, you're not scared in the moment. 

37:37 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
You're like oh, this is a good apparition. 

37:40
Yeah, well, you know, it's so instilled with us in the media and the movies and everything you know, like with ghosts. Many years ago I had a woman at a grief retreat and I had a private conversation with her afterwards. I said what would it take, what would it take, what would it take for you to believe that your daughter still exists? And she said, bob, if I could see my daughter then I would believe. And I didn't talk to this woman for many, many years. And 10 years later she came to another grief retreat and she came up to me and she said do you remember the conversation you had with me? And frankly, I talked to so many people, I didn't. And she told me you know what the conversation was. And she said to me well, I saw my daughter. I said how? She said I opened my eyes in the morning and there she was, standing at the foot of the bed and I said well, what happened? And she said it scared the shit out of me. 

38:30 - Mark (Host)
I screamed. 

38:31 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
And as soon as I screamed, she disappeared, saying to myself you know, here, your daughter took 10 years to figure out how to appear to you and you and you were. You know, instead of embracing it, you were fearful. But that's the time. 

38:45 - Mark (Host)
You know that society we live in so wait, so that that leads me to a question I forgot I had. You just said took your daughter 10 years to figure out how to appear to you. You also said it took your daughter 10 years to figure out how to appear to you. You also said it took your wife three years to decide that that was the moment that was going to be most convincing for you, right in the car. I remember Houdini famously said if there's any chance I could ever send you a sign to his wife when I die, then you'll know I will do it. 

39:11
Is it that some people, some people cannot or they need to figure it out, or it's available only to certain people. Like what's the vibe on that? 

39:24 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
I think it's a combination of all those, you know. I mean, you got to figure. I mean so, especially if you, if you don't believe in life after death, and now you die and you wake up and you see that you still live, that must be mind blowing, you know. Now you have to navigate this whole new environment by thought. Right, everybody communicates by thought, which, incidentally, that's why there's no, you know, ego or or greed or anything on the other side, because there are no material possessions and everybody can hear what you're thinking you know, so you know. 

39:53
So there's no you know what, there's no incentive to lie, but but yeah, I think that there are people on the other side that help people you know to communicate, um, but yes, some people there look, there are cases like in my daughter. My daughter was was was physically dead 15 minutes and she was able to manifest, you know, some people. I don't know the reason for it, but yeah, it's uh, it's that that part of it is a mystery so is your daughter, is stacy's father, is my father. 

40:25 - Mark (Host)
They're not manifesting in front of us, but are they here, like? Are they here physically or not physically? You know, are they energetically here, looking at us, listening to us. Do they blink in and out? How does that? 

40:38 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
yeah, I, I think that they keep aware of what's going on in our lives. They may be able to imprint thoughts into our mind, but people in spirit don't have, on a macro level, can't change the course of of human, of world events. Right, you know they can't prevent wars, they can't prevent all this crap that's happening, but they can. Suddenly we may be driving and all of a sudden we hear a voice that says turn right when we turn left every day, and then you find out there was an accident. You know where people like that were going to the world trade center. You know that for some reason didn't go to work that day. You know, because they had a feeling. I think that they can. You know, I had the question answer to whether they stay connected to our lives. 

41:25
I was after my wife passed. I was in our kitchen and I was washing dishes and when we had our home remodeled I used to say to my wife that every time that I washed something in the sink, I said it was the sink was really poorly designed because I got soaked every time that I they weren't deep enough, you know. So I'm washing dishes and I'm getting soaked and I scream to my wife. You know, I don't care what you say, this is a poor design and the sinks are terrible, you know. And then the next morning I got an email from a medium that happens to be certified by our foundation, was a close friend of Fran's, and she said to me Bob, I wasn't trying to connect with Fran, but she came to me this morning and she told me to to tell you just two words kitchen sink, you know, you know. So, come on, I just said that out loud to her. Of all the things, kitchen sink that's wild, isn't it? That said to me that, yeah, she was aware. 

42:28
That doesn't mean they're with you 24-7. 

42:30 - Stacey (Host)
Thank God, I don't want my dad watching 24-7. That's for sure. I definitely don't want that. 

42:37 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
But I do know, thank God, I don't want my dad watching 24 seven, that's for sure. I definitely don't want that. But I do know, go ahead, go ahead, keep going, go ahead. I think they, I think they sense when you, when you, need them Right. 

42:42 - Stacey (Host)
So just one more thing I can just add, like when I I was sick in 2023, I almost died of a MRSA infection in my face and the doctors had told me that there it was, most likely around my heart, and I was so petrified, I was so scared. I was in my hospital bed getting ready to go get my test and I was laying there, hysterical, and I honestly felt a hand in my hair brush back my hair, and I knew in that moment that I was fine and I knew it was my dad that told me I was okay and I am dead serious. 

43:09 - Mark (Host)
Well, that's the knowing that. 

43:11 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah, yeah. 

43:11 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
I mean, we've heard that all the time People feel brushes. More often than not it's just a sense of presence. It's not actually somebody, but they just know somebody. We tend to. We think of somebody in spirit. We look up to the skies or the heavens, but it's really another dimension. They're right in front of us, just on a different plane. 

43:36 - Stacey (Host)
Do we have to be open to it? 

43:38 - Mark (Host)
Are you looking at me like accusing me? 

43:41 - Stacey (Host)
But I mean, I've just heard that you're not going to see things, you're not going to feel things, unless you open your heart to it. 

43:48 - Mark (Host)
To the possibility I guess right. 

43:50 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
Yeah, or like in my case, I was having all these incredible signs and communications that were happening around me but I didn't even notice them because my way I was thinking it was impossible, so I wasn't paying attention to them. You know, I mean it was only after I became convinced by the science that this stuff is real that I started to have more of these. You know different types of of of communication. So yeah, if you don't believe something is going to exist, I mean it's not going to happen. 

44:19 - Stacey (Host)
You're phenomenal. 

44:20 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
I just want to hear everything you have to say I just have so many more but, I. 

44:23 - Stacey (Host)
I know everybody has to go, but um. So what is next for you? 

44:27 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
Our website is foreverfamilyfoundationorg. A lot of this stuff we're talking about, you know, is on there and we do webinars, we we host a weekly radio show. Um, there are a lot of things that we used to do that I just don't. We used to publish a magazine. I mean, after my wife died, I'm just a little bit yeah, what I could do, but you know we're an all volunteer organization. Nobody has ever gotten paid um and uh, you know, and we do well because there's so many people that are interested in this stuff. 

44:57
I learned something new every day. Some of the stuff still blows my mind. 

45:00 - Mark (Host)
Well, you've done a whole lot of mind-blowing today, that's for sure yeah, it's good stuff. 

45:04 - Stacey (Host)
I love it so much. Thank you enough for spending this time. Really really appreciate you coming my favorite episodes right. It's been so fun. Really. You're stating that right now. I swear to god it's one of my favorites. Yeah, he was very stoked for this episode yeah, well it was. I enjoyed it too, but I loved the interaction we actually didn't do it as much today because we were like riveted with what you were saying. 

45:23 - Mark (Host)
I know we weren't here you had to say yeah, for sure. 

45:27 - Robert Ginsberg (Guest)
I'm going to keep working on Mark. I had a scientist that I used to be working with and he knew what a skeptic I was, and every month he'd send me an email when are you now? I started off at 1%. I'm a 5%. You know, I was like where are you now? I'm a 10%. 

45:44 - Mark (Host)
That's what I'm going to do tomorrow. Where are you right now? I, well, I was probably single digits before this, but based in real evidence, I'm out of single digits 10%, 10, 15. You know what the whole thing with? I'm very familiar with the people who lose their life on the operating table, zoom up to the sky and describe exactly what they couldn't see from where they were laying and the instruments on the counter and all. And I believe that because how do you not? 

46:10 - Stacey (Host)
believe that Right right. 

46:11 - Mark (Host)
So there's a lot of evidence like that that moves me further along. But again, I think my realization for today is the charlatans I'll call them that that prey on innocent people. Just dying to find out that their loved ones still love them or still connected or still in a good place has jaded me to potentially the truth, and that's why I love the scientific and, coming from somebody who was a skeptic right, that's why it means so much more to me. 

46:38 - Stacey (Host)
Right, I appreciate that. Thank you. 

46:40 - Mark (Host)
Thank you, bob All right, thank you, I will let you know when this comes out, and it's so great to see you All right, be well, take care, thank you, thank you, bye-bye. Thank you all you're still here. 

46:56 - Stacey (Host)
You're still listening. Thanks for listening to the gurus and game changers podcast while you're here. If you enjoyed it, please take a minute to rate this episode and leave us a quick review. We want to know what you thought of the show and what you took from it and how it might have helped you. We read and appreciate every comment. Thanks, see you next week.