She Never Saw the Signs: A Mother's Mission to Save Lives | Ep 080

💔 In this powerful episode, hosts Mark and Stacey sit down with Sally Raymond, author of "The Son I Knew Too Late." After losing her brilliant son Jon at age 23, Sally transformed her grief into a mission to help parents recognize warning signs they might miss. 

Now at 82, this psychotherapist shares crucial insights on how schools and parents can better support children's emotional development, the dangers of hyper-competitive environments, and why grades should never define a child's worth. 

Sally offers both heartbreaking wisdom and practical strategies that could save lives. Her story reminds us that social-emotional skills are just as important as academic achievement, and that through our darkest experiences, we can become a force for good.

👩🏻‍💻 Sally's Website: https://sallyaraymond.com/
📕 Sally's Book, 'The Son I Knew Too Late': https://sallyaraymond.com/book/

👉🏼 Chapters:
00:02 - Hosts Discuss the Emotional Impact of the Episode
03:52 - Sally Shares About John's Early Childhood Challenges
05:32 - John's Remarkable Academic Achievements
06:31 - The Hidden Trauma That Shaped John's Life
13:23 - The Moment That Changed Everything
15:42 - The Phone Call That Wasn't Made
16:20 - The Shocking Revelation From John's Brother
19:47 - The Importance of Recognizing Cries for Help
21:22 - What Schools and Parents Are Missing
24:59 - The Problem With Competitive Educational Environments
26:00 - Advice for Parents: Focus on Effort, Not Grades
27:38 - Message for Parents Dealing With Grief
28:31 - Sally's Mission at 82 Years Old

📲 Connect with Our Hosts:
Stacey: https://www.instagram.com/staceymgrant/
Mark: https://www.instagram.com/mark_lubragge_onair/

⭐️ Watch/Subscribe to Gurus and Game Changers on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@GurusAndGameChangers
⭐️ Listen on any podcast audio platform

Transcript

00:02 - Mark (Host)
so yeah I must say, of all the episodes you've ever done yeah, this one, probably, not probably. This one, uh, emotionally affected me more than any other really mark yeah, I know, and that's hard for me to say I did not notice that I could. 

00:20 - Stacey (Host)
I couldn't see you. I was looking at the yeah, no it's. 

00:23 - Mark (Host)
I mean it was hard to listen to yeah. 

00:26 - Stacey (Host)
It was just so. As the father of a son, brutally, it was hard to listen to Visceral and there are some uplifting things about the episode, though I don't want everyone to feel like they're going to be miserable listening to it, because she learned a lot that she's teaching others. 

00:45 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, sally Raymond. 

00:46 - Stacey (Host)
Sally. 

00:46 - Mark (Host)
Raymond. Her son was a superstar, rising star. You know, one of the kids that was sort of touched, yeah, like he was in college at 14. Like crazy, crazy trajectory he was on he taught calculus at like 16 or something, right, crazy. 

01:01 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah, yeah, one of those Right. I don't know any of them. Well, I don't know, but I've heard of Heard of them. 

01:08 - Mark (Host)
I hear they exist. And then, at 23, he decided to end his life. Yes, and you know the hell that that ushers into anybody's life, and certainly a mother's life. But she was able to take all of that. She wrote a book. Good, the son I knew too late. That's a that's depressing too. I know when everything about this. 

01:28 - Stacey (Host)
I know it's a toughie, but I think it's really important yeah, yeah, it really is. I'm sorry, mark you look like you're still affected by it. 

01:37 - Mark (Host)
Just record, I know so she took everything she learned and was forced to go through, and she actually had just become a psychotherapist when her son made this decision and she has turned it into a mission to help. And boy, is she helping. 

01:54 - Stacey (Host)
Oh, and she has some really good ideas too for schools and for parents. 

01:58 - Mark (Host)
This is why we wanted to have her on the show. 

01:59 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah. 

01:59 - Mark (Host)
Because this show is all about a lot of times. It's about that obstacle, that thing that happens, and the people that truly turn into a game changer for other people as a result, and she truly has turned into a game changer for many, many people. 

02:13 - Stacey (Host)
The Goof. 

02:13 - Mark (Host)
For many of the Goof. 

02:15 - Stacey (Host)
And it is the number one killer of kids 15 to 24 right now, and it's on the rise. So this is an important episode. Everybody, please listen to Sally Raymond. Hi, I'm Stacey. 

02:27 - Mark (Host)
And I am Mark, and this is the Gurus at Game Changers podcast. Sally, thank you so much for coming on the show. 

02:37 - Stacey (Host)
Do you want to tell us the story of what happened? He was a fantastic kid, right Super smart. 

02:42 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
John was my first. When I had him I was so excited and he was beautiful. When I had him, I was so excited and he was beautiful. When I brought him home he was crying and I I told the doctor and he said, oh, it's colic. It lasts about three months. At three months he was still crying and I called the doctor saying he's still crying. He said it would be over and he said, well, maybe it's the four month colic or the five month colic. 

03:04
And I was like so mad at that point I just hung up on him and I found a new doctor the same day, pediatrician, and he was examining him and he said, oh, feel right here. And he was feeling along his collarbone and he said feel that lump right there. He's had a broken collarbone the whole time. That was what was. Oh my gosh, you're kidding me. You could have scraped me off the ceiling. I was absolutely blown because every time I touched him, every time he moved, he had only to believe that nobody cared, nobody got him, nobody understood his pain and was making it worse. That misdiagnosis was the most horrible beginning a child could ever have. 

03:51 - Stacey (Host)
And. 

03:52 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
I had already blown it and he was just born and it affected him forever. You would go to touch him and he'd pull back. His body would just. 

04:03 - Stacey (Host)
He thought touch was pain. Oh my gosh. 

04:06 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
And so every time I tried to soothe him, I was hurting. Oh, Sally. 

04:11 - Stacey (Host)
Oh my gosh. 

04:12 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
So that, and when you don't have trust at the beginning of your life, it's a high predictor for suicide later on. 

04:21 - Mark (Host)
I didn't know that, wow. 

04:24 - Stacey (Host)
Unbelievable. 

04:29 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
When he was two years old, I was driving past a gas station and he was in the back seat and all of a sudden I heard him go. Ta-ex-a-co Two. He was reading. 

04:40 - Mark (Host)
Wow, he was brilliant. 

04:41 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
And that's when I realized, oh darn it, he's smart. Oh my God, I'm a C student. What am I doing with him? Well, how did this happen? Yeah, and I was. Then I was scared, so I realized I had to do something, because I knew it was only going to get worse and I had to stay credible as his mom. And so I had to go back to school. And then I came back I hadn't been in school in many years and I came back from two night courses with an A plus and a B plus, and I was thrilled because I'd been a student. And I walked in and I said John, guess what I got, guess what I got. And he's all like, what did you get? And I said I got an A plus and a B plus. And he just looked at me like I died and went you got a B. 

05:30 - Stacey (Host)
Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. 

05:32 - Mark (Host)
Was he an Australian student? 

05:34 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
Yeah, Wait how old was he at this point? He was about seven. At 14, he was in calculus at UCSB with 250 regular STEM college students Wow and he was the one getting the top grade each of three quarters and inventing new proofs oh my goodness, yeah, he was one of those. And then, 15, he was teaching calculus. And at 16, he was invited into Carnegie Mellon in theoretical math, and he was the only one who ended up graduating with both his bachelor's and master's awarded in four years, not six. 

06:09
Wow, goodness, gracious, so he just absolutely nailed, excelled, yeah, beyond belief. And a year and a half later he killed himself. 

06:19 - Stacey (Host)
Wow, Well, along the way, like when he was doing that well, did you see any signs of mental illness? Or did you see any like was he? What was he like socially, versus, of course, he was excelling in school. 

06:31 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
John had some really early horrible things happen. He was almost four when he was molested by a teenage boy in the neighborhood who nobody had told me that it was a new neighborhood we had just moved, moved, nobody told me there was a danger lurking three, four doors away and um, he went to meet new friends and I was watching him from the, from the windows and um, all of a sudden he disappeared and when he came back he wasn't the same son and I had had. I took him immediately to the police and they interviewed him and they put they found the guy and the guy had a record a mile long and they put it. But my son was molested and I didn't know what to do and my husband wouldn't, wouldn't even think about letting him go to a therapist or anything, even think about letting him go to a therapist or anything. 

07:29
And so John suffered for that. He felt he was ruined. He told me he said I'm too bad a boy. You know that was his feeling. And then his father had a very bad reaction to it and I ended up there was other things too but I divorced him and then he really felt his father had left because of him and then he really felt his father had left because of him and I could not change his mind. I could not. I tried my best and anyway, so that those two hits really, really affected him. And I only now realize that the whole time he was excelling, he was trying to prove that he was worthy. 

08:06 - Mark (Host)
Right. 

08:07 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
The whole motivation was to prove yeah, I'm good, I can overcome this. Did he come home and tell you what had happened? He said, you know. But when he showed up at my, when he came back to the house, his face was pure white and he had some strange little things that had been given by this guy to keep his mouth shut. Yes, and I said what's this? And he said I can't tell you. 

08:34 - Mark (Host)
Which told me. Everything. 

08:37 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
Everything and I said you have to show me where you went. And he didn't want to, but I made him and the boy was outside laying in the grass and I saw him and I wanted to just rip his eyes out. 

08:50 - Mark (Host)
I wanted to rip him apart. You said the boy. 

08:54 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
This was a younger man it was a 16 year old boy 16 year old, did he get in trouble for what he? Did? He went to, I took, I sent him, I got him to prison for three years. 

09:04 - Stacey (Host)
Good good. 

09:05 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
But it didn't help. 

09:06 - Stacey (Host)
John, three years is not enough, did not help. 

09:07 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
John, john, yeah, he, probably he had his own sentence. 

09:10 - Mark (Host)
He had a lifetime sentence as a result. 

09:12 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
He was nothing but a good guy Right. 

09:15 - Stacey (Host)
He was brilliant. 

09:16 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
He was funny as heck, he had a great sense of humor, he was good in English, he was good in spelling, he was good in negotiations. I mean, he was just absolutely unbelievable. The most interesting thing is, before the graduation ceremony of the dorm and there was a stairwell going straight up. It was dark, no lights, but if you're once your eyes adjusted, you could see a big red cross on the floor underneath the stairs. And he just said this is where they do it and he walked out and we didn't know what he meant. I now know he was showing us the suicide spot what? 

10:09 - Mark (Host)
this is where, what, how they would jump yes and it was common. 

10:15 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
It was common, common knowledge that the students, as a, as a, as kind of a dark joke, painted a big red x on the floor where they landed oh my goodness. 

10:27 - Stacey (Host)
So you at the time you had no idea that he was had suicidal ideation no, we knew that he went through dips. 

10:34 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
Yeah, but don't we all you know? Yeah yeah I felt that he, he was, he was doing so well and he was, you know, creating a, a future totally worth living yeah, a bright future right beyond belief, and so I couldn't imagine that he would, you know, opt out like that ever in a million years and I thought his life was set, everything was great, and he himself. It was the biggest shock of my entire life. 

11:05 - Mark (Host)
Can you walk us through that day? 

11:08 - Stacey (Host)
Oh, if you can. 

11:14 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
Yeah, it was during Easter. He had died on Good Friday actually, and I didn't know that, and my other son and I were at home that night while he was turning his car into a missile. We were watching the Sound of Music together, the songs that were being played at the very time he died. Just hit me. I didn't know at the time but afterwards I realized, just hit me like a freight train. There was eight of us and he was that pure flower that you never find anyone like him. And then there was Climb Every Mountain, which was basically his story and a message to all of us to do the same. And then the other one was Goodbye so Long. And those three went into his funeral, his memorial. At the same time it felt like he was singing to us and those three went into his funeral, his memorial. 

12:25
At the same time it felt like he was singing to us, yeah. And the next morning I woke up it was a beautiful day in Santa Barbara and the sun was shining on my bed and I heard the phone ring and I picked it up and it was my mother-in-law and she's the one who said I don't know why, I'm the one who has to tell you this. But then she told me and I fell on the floor and I never got up. I mean, I threw up. I tried to evacuate that message every way you can there's no evacuation and I was screaming. And then another call came in and it was my ex-boyfriend I'd just broken up with the night before, very happily, and he just heard me screaming and he came over and it helped a little bit, but nothing will ever help that moment. 

13:23
You die, then you really die because that child is so embedded. He was a part of me before I was even born, and he was a part of me. He was a part of my story. He was part of how I became who I am. Who am I without him? The story that I'm living now actually began that mother died, but what was reborn in that moment was what did I miss? And I had just gotten the skills as a psychotherapist to possibly be able to see more than I hadn't been able to see before, and so that was what put me on this path. 

14:06 - Mark (Host)
I definitely want to change and talk about the path and everything that you've learned about him since his passing, but I'm curious because I didn't see it anywhere. Was there a note left? Did he explain his actions in any way, or were you just left to figure it out? 

14:20 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
he actually called his father that night and his father doesn't have empathy. He's an engineer kind of guy, he's not a fly boy, right and um, he just said, dad, I'm out of control. And his dad couldn't. He didn't get it, he didn't read what was what John was saying and he just said something like oh, you'll be fine in the morning, just go to bed or relax. And John wasn't fine in the morning. 

14:55 - Stacey (Host)
As a mom, you're probably like why didn't he call me Well? 

14:58 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
well, that was the first thing, is I thought I'm a psychotherapist. Now, why didn't you call me to let me know that our son was in trouble? 

15:05 - Stacey (Host)
well, why didn't your son call you too like I would have been, like wait? 

15:09 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
well you know, john had issues with me. I, I had divorced father and he was angry he'd never quite gotten over that. And then I had married my second husband, who was a wonderful guy, but he and I just didn't. It just didn't work either. So I was divorcing him too. So my son was angry at both of those things. But so he had he could not have. I don't know if he called, I was, I was busy breaking up with my boyfriend at the time and we didn't have cell phones like we did back then, and I don't know whether he tried to call and I wasn't home. I just don't know. 

15:43 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah, and that doesn't mean that anything would have changed either. No, no, had he spoken to you. 

15:48 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
Yeah, oh, I believe I would have saved him. 

15:52 - Stacey (Host)
Oh Lord. 

15:53 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
Because I wouldn't have just said oh you know you'll be fine in the morning. 

15:56 - Stacey (Host)
No, I would have said oh, you know you'll be fine in the morning? 

15:59 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
No, I would have said where are you? Yeah, I'm coming to get you now, and don't you dare do a thing until I get there, and we'll work it out. Whatever it is, it cannot be that bad. 

16:08 - Stacey (Host)
I also think it's interesting that, as you were driving to the memorial service, your younger son told you something. 

16:20 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
Yes, it just blew my mind. We were driving and he said a couple of things. But one of the things he said is he was there in the backseat and he looked like a ghost and he just said you know, mom is first. He said you know, as long as John lived, lived, he said I knew I was part of a really smart family. The second thing he said is you know, he did this before, he tried this before. And I said what are you talking about? I mean, I just kind of was like in shock already and I just said what, what do you? What do you mean? What, what are you saying? And he said he tried to kill himself before. 

16:56
And he said well, it was when Sandra was babysitting us and he asked me to help him get a crate out of the garage and a rope. We took it out to the front, the tree out front, and he threw the rope over the limb and he tied a knot and he tied a noose around his neck. My little one was like three years old then, neck, my little one was like three years old then. And he said he got up on top of the crate and tied the noose tight around him and pulled it. And he told his brother. He said kick out the crate. And Brett said I didn't know what he was doing, and so I did it. And he was hanging doing and so I did it and he was hanging. And he said that, sandra, my babysitter saw him from the window and ran outside and pulled him off and said don't you ever do that again. 

17:47 - Mark (Host)
But she never told me so many of the reasons that he ultimately took his life could not have. It did not exist at age five, which I think is sort of the age you're describing here. What? Why do you think he was doing that? Was it just play? 

18:01 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
Was it just? It was the molestation. Oh, I'm sorry I forgot that part Times his father leaving and he thought he was too bad a boy so he wanted help. 

18:12 - Stacey (Host)
I think this is so amazing that you're sharing this right now and I feel like there's so many parents and this is so hard for you. So I just want to thank you for being able to share this with us and share this with our audience. But I think that we can learn something from this story as well, as you know how the other part of your story and you found out I think there were 90 stories that were told to you about John and some of the things you had no idea about and not to say because as parents, we don't hear all the things. We're doing a lot of podcasts, people are coming to us and telling us how to talk to kids, and it's really been eye-opening for me as a parent of a kid who's a lot older. What did those stories inform for you about John and do you think you would have done something differently to find those things out, knowing what you know now? 

19:00 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
Oh sure, I mean his own brother when he told me that John had tried that before. That was completely. I had no clue. And what was so tragic about that is that John must have thought I knew and didn't care. Oh God, I mean, can you imagine what that would do to somebody you know? Here he does this horrific thing and everybody else is like nothing's happened. You know, this is a cry for love. Yes, it's a huge cry for love. There's only love, it's all love, everything is love. What doesn't look like love is a cry for love. 

19:42 - Stacey (Host)
This is a cry for there's only love, it's all love, everything is love, and what doesn't look like love is a cry for love. This is a cry for love. And he never got it. And don't tell me you wouldn't have put him into therapy. At that point you would have been like, oh, this definitely, you know. If you would have known that. 

19:47 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
Yeah, I tried to put him in therapy but he, his father, was against it. A hundred percent, I understand that. And I, um, I, I did try a couple more times and when I was a single parent and something would always go wrong and John would be just I get that left abandoned and I just it was. 

20:09
And finally he just said, no, I'm not, but yeah, it was. And so there were so many things that I either didn't understand at the time, because I wasn't a therapist, you know but this is all things that moms are dealing with all the time. 

20:24 - Stacey (Host)
And there were stories from his friends and other people that kind of gave you clues as to things you might have. 

20:32 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
Oh, all of that. I mean what happened at the last. I wanted to know what was the trigger, what caused this? You have this boy who's been traumatized, so his trauma is still living in his cells. It's not up here anymore, it's in your body's reflexes, in your cellular wherewithal. There there's always, you know, some trigger that can happen, where something similar, something triggers that, that miasma underneath us, that's inside of us, and it blows us out and we think the problem is in front of us, when it's really that thing that happened before, but we don't remember it. 

21:17 - Stacey (Host)
So what's the solution? Sally, I know you've written this book, the Son I Knew Too Late. 

21:22 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
I identified at least nine or 10 things that we have been innocently doing wrong by not doing what we're not doing and what we're doing. One of the main things that I realized is that nobody teaches social-emotional skills in schools. They don't teach you how to learn either. 

21:44 - Mark (Host)
So true. 

21:45 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
They expect you to know when they're not giving everyone an equal chance. You know, if you give them learning, study skills, they can learn fine, but if they don't know those skills, they are at a very definite deficit. Same with social, emotional skills. These are the skills that help us, as individuals, succeed and feel good about ourselves and give us hope and a positive path forward, and also glue our communities together and make us indivisible and you know a unitary thing that strengthens everything. We are doing the opposite. What I do is I go in for the last 21 years and I'm starting again next week for the second time this year, next week, for the second time this year teaching those skills to young high school students. Every year I walk in to a sea of dead, bored eyes. 

22:47 - Stacey (Host)
God bless you, Sally. 

22:49 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
In eight weeks the eyes are on fire and the hands can't stop raising and you watch each kid. Teach each kid how to be successful. I teach them the skills they have to speak, and then I talk about what they did well and then I talk about one or two things they could improve on. When you do that with each kid, the whole class starts to just elevate. When you do that with each kid, the whole class starts to just elevate and they realize they have these skills inside of them but they've never known how to use them. And once they start to use them, you just watch the eyes go on fire because there's hope, there's excitement. They realize they can matter. Their stories make a difference. They can succeed in life. Their stories make a difference. They can succeed in life. And that's what really gives people the hope that buoys people away from ever being suicidal. There's also so much that society isn't doing the study skills. 

23:46
My little one, because he was in the shadow of a genius he was 18 months younger than John thought he was a failure and so he didn't try. And when he went to school he was put in special ed and I didn't see a thing wrong with him. But the schools did and they said he had learning disabilities and speech impediments. And I just thought he just had an older, brighter brother. I swear to God, he dressed and went to school and I would have to leave work and go flying past San Marcos on my looking, seeking out my truant son, and always, in Santa Barbara, end up at the beach, because where else is a truant son in Santa Barbara going to go? But what I didn't know then is that he had a book with him that he took to the beach every day, called Getting Straight A's, and it was a book to teach him how to study, how to learn, how to succeed. And he read that book and reread it, and reread it. I have it at home. It's a disaster. And when he went back to school he went from a one point to a four point. But I'm just saying that this is what schools are defaulting on. 

24:59
And then also the whole idea of bullying. If you have a grading system that selects two or three kids out of a whole class, they're going to be attacked. And John was bullied to pieces. He was bullied everywhere. It was just. I mean, it was a gulag, and you know, just because he was doing well, they were going to get him. Yeah, you know, and they did, they did so well. I mean, at Carnegie, they were ruthless, they were just ruthless. At college, they were ruthless, oh the worst. 

25:26 - Mark (Host)
He was so young, right. 

25:28 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
Yeah, he was the youngest kid and he was out shining everybody else and they were going to get him. So, unfortunate shining everybody else and they were going to get them. We're creating the future with these children and we cannot allow that to happen. We have to be effective in protecting the children, but we also need to put in a grading system that isn't going to inculcate toxic competition as parents what can a parent do? 

26:00
competition as parents. What can a parent do? Well, first of all, do not think about the word, about the grades. The most important thing to think about is did you put in an effort? Did you try? If you tried, good. And success comes with perseverance. That's what creates success. If you don't give up, you learn, you grow, you become, you don't let anything. Nothing is failure. Quitting is failure. Grades don't matter. Just keep working, learn, because the grades are grading a whole lot of other things besides your performance, and it certainly isn't defining you. 

26:39 - Mark (Host)
Yeah. 

26:39 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
If that makes any sense. 

26:41 - Mark (Host)
It does. It's hard, though, because, like to your point, schools are entrenched in grades, Parents are entrenched in grades. 

26:49 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
And parents are also not. They're doing all these helicopter parents. And now there's lawnmower parents. 

26:56 - Stacey (Host)
No, no, no, no. We just heard that term in another podcast. We did lawnmower parents. I never heard of that before. Now you're the second one. 

27:01 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
You mow down everything in front of them so they can't learn, they can't grow, they can't become. You're creating sycophants, you're creating narcissists. You're creating kids that think everybody's going to do it for you. No, kids have to have. They have to have real struggles. They have to have difficulties, because that's how we learn and grow. 

27:21 - Mark (Host)
You have obviously a lot of ways to protect and serve and develop the kids. I'm curious what single message you would have for someone a parent who's wracked with grief right now, or attributing blame to themselves. 

27:38 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
I would say that there is no positive benefit to feeling guilty over what happened. If you had known better, you would have done better. But what you can do is learn. Nothing is bad in and of itself. It's what we do about it that makes it either good or bad. And that's the most important thing is do something, be a force for good. If you've learned anything from your experience, take that learning and turn it into a force for good, and if you do that, you'll be honoring whoever it was, you're grieving and you will be giving them new life. 

28:26 - Mark (Host)
Well said, well said. 

28:28 - Stacey (Host)
So what's next for you, Sally? 

28:31 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
Well, I'm almost 82. Wow. 

28:35 - Mark (Host)
Wow, we both react the same way. 

28:37 - Stacey (Host)
Wow, definitely don't look 82. 

28:39 - Mark (Host)
No. 

28:40 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
Well, I feel like I've been given grace. Honestly, I do. At this point I don't care about anything except making as much difference as I can with what I've had to learn the hardest way possible, Wow. 

28:52 - Stacey (Host)
Well, the Sun I Knew Too Late is on Amazon in Barnes Noble right, so people can read that and get more insights into how to maybe deal with or not have the same situation happen with them, right. 

29:07 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
It will definitely help. There is no way it won't help. 

29:10 - Stacey (Host)
It's really beautifully written. Yeah, it's really really good. You did a great job. 

29:14 - Mark (Host)
Yeah. 

29:14 - Stacey (Host)
I read the excerpt on Amazon, but it's really really great. 

29:17 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
Sally, how can high? 

29:18 - Mark (Host)
schools get ahold of you. 

29:19 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
Get ahold of me through my website. It's sallyaraymondcom. Email me. I have no problem having anyone email me. I love to talk to people, but I really have appreciated this. It's been beautiful, amazing. 

29:31 - Mark (Host)
Perfect. Well, I'm speaking, I'm sure, for Stacey, but we're honored that you had the chance to come on the show and share that story with I'm sure it's going to help a lot of people and your book as well, and all your work, so thank you. 

29:43 - Sally Raymond (Guest)
Well, thank you, you've been incredibly resonant and helpful and, and you know, really present to me and I just I cannot thank you enough, cannot thank you enough. Thank you so much, thank you. Thank you, everybody. 

29:58 - Mark (Host)
Thank you, guys, we'll see you soon. 

30:05 - Stacey (Host)
You're still here. You're still listening. Thanks for listening to the Gurus and Game Changers podcast While you're here. If you enjoyed it, please take a minute to rate this episode and leave us a quick review. We want to know what you thought of the show and what you took from it and how it might have helped you. We read and appreciate every comment. Thanks, See you next week.