Criminal Lawyer: ‘I Had to Quit When I Saw THIS‘ | Ep 085

🚨 **Why would a successful prosecutor walk away from their career?** 🚨

After 8+ years prosecuting criminals, James Porfido quit and switched to defending the accused. He reveals the shocking truth about what really happens inside our justice system.

**🔥 WHAT HE WITNESSED:**

- Police officers getting promoted after being acquitted of murder
- Judges showing clear bias toward prosecution
- How the system treats people differently based on status
- Why innocent people get railroaded by the system

**⚖️ SHOCKING STORIES:**

- Police sergeant kills wife’s boyfriend, gets acquitted, then promoted
- Why some defendants get 60 years while others walk free
- The corruption he couldn’t ignore anymore

**🎯 BIG QUESTIONS ANSWERED:**

- Why did OJ really get acquitted?
- Will Diddy actually go to prison?
- How do judges secretly help prosecutors win?

⚖️ GET THE BOOK: "Unequal Justice: The Search for Truth to Balance the Scales" : https://www.amazon.com/Unequal-Justice-Search-Balance-Scales/dp/B0DHWT1N8D

0:00 - Host Introduction & Justice System Discussion
2:44 - Meet James Porfido
3:04 - Will Diddy Actually Go to Prison?
3:52 - Karen Read Case Analysis
4:39 - OJ Simpson: Why He Really Got Away With Murder
5:36 - Menendez Brothers: The Truth Behind Their Release Bid
6:13 - Why I Wrote "Unequal Justice"
6:48 - How Judges Secretly Favor Prosecutors
8:27 - The Case That Changed Everything
11:28 - Why I Switched from Prosecutor to Defense
13:04 - Do Defense Attorneys Get a Bad Rap?
14:34 - Should Your Lawyer Know If You're Guilty?
16:43 - Police Officer Domestic Violence Cover-Up
19:42 - The Killing of MM: Death by Prison
22:04 - What to Do If You're Falsely Accused
24:08 - The "Consensual Overhear" Police Trap
25:51 - How to Handle Police Traffic Stops
27:23 - DUI Defense Strategies
28:36 - Can the Justice System Be Fixed?
29:56 - How to Choose the Right Lawyer
32:21 - Closing & Where to Find the Book

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Transcript

00:01 - James Porfido (Guest)
I don't know if I'm a pessimist? 

00:03 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
I think you are. 

00:03 - Stacey Grant (Host)
Let me finish my sentence. I'm just going to say I think you are Go ahead. 

00:09 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
I think I'm a realist. 

00:10 - Stacey Grant (Host)
Yes, you're definitely a realist. 

00:11 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
I'm a realist, and sometimes being a realist means you have to be a pessimist. I do not think the American justice system is fixable. 

00:21 - Stacey Grant (Host)
I think it is broken. 

00:22 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
It will forever be broken. 

00:23 - Stacey Grant (Host)
I'm an optimist and I tend to agree with you. Only because how can it change? How can it change? We don't have any. There's no steps to change. It's too big. 

00:32 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
It's too big and it's too broken because of too many people. Yeah, Changing a couple people is not going to fix it, and I don't know. I mean, maybe our guest today was a little bit more optimistic. He said it comes down to the people. 

00:45 - Stacey Grant (Host)
Yeah, he said there was a five. 

00:47 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
A five, a five out of ten chance that Dead center. 

00:49 - Stacey Grant (Host)
That potentially Well, and that is also a very lawyer thing to say yes. Right, you're not going to jump on one side or jump on the other, but From a guy who was both sides, he was a great conversation. He's sharp, he's sharp. 

01:06 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
I have his phone number now he's been around the block, Because one of your questions was where do we even? 

01:11 - James Porfido (Guest)
go? Where do we even? 

01:12 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
start, you're suddenly accused of something you get in a yellow. He said yellow pages, but I'm calling. 

01:17 - Stacey Grant (Host)
Yellow pages. How old are you? 

01:19 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
No, he said yellow pages. He said back in the day, but now it's a Google search. But I don't want to do that. I want to know somebody I can feel confident. 

01:28 - Stacey Grant (Host)
I want a referral. I want a referral from someone that has gotten off of a charge that was difficult to get off of. 

01:32 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
I will refer you to him. 

01:34 - Stacey Grant (Host)
Well, I'll definitely. Now I'm going to call James. 

01:36 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
It was a great conversation. He really told us what was broken system. By the way of a ton of examples of cases that he was, he either prosecuted or he was the defense attorney for well, he wrote the book he wrote the book unequal justice. 

01:50 - Stacey Grant (Host)
Great book yeah lots I like. The whole concept is amazing he's got stories, so he was at one point a defense attorney a prosecutor eight plus years right and then something happens which he talks about on the podcast, a huge, major event that changes his mind, and then he becomes a defense attorney. So he sees it from both sides and I guess he was a better defense attorney because of his prosecutorial experience. 

02:14 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
Yeah, he still thinks like a prosecutor and it gives him a unique perspective and gives him all sorts of credibility to say the things that he's saying, and we just had a really good conversation. 

02:23 - Stacey Grant (Host)
I know, but I think the audience is really going to get a lot out of it in terms of how do you choose a lawyer? What do you need in a lawyer? How can you get into the system? 

02:32 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
And what do you do when the cops show up? 

02:34 - Stacey Grant (Host)
Yes, that's a big one for me. Yes, what should you do when you? 

02:37 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
A get pulled over. B cops show up at a scene and you're there, it's good stuff Everybody. Enjoy. 

02:44 - Stacey Grant (Host)
James Porfito. Hi, I'm Stacey. 

02:48 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
And I am Mark, and this is the Gurus and Game Changers podcast. James, what's up, buddy? Welcome to the show. 

02:57 - James Porfido (Guest)
Well, thank you. Thank you so much for having me on Mark and Stacey. We're looking forward to the conversation. 

03:02 - Stacey Grant (Host)
This is, this is awesome. 

03:04 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
I have one question Is Diddy going down or not? Is he going to serve all the time, or is he going to get off on some technicality? They got to be careful with Diddy. 

03:11 - James Porfido (Guest)
I got to tell you it's going to be the same situation as Weinstein. If they start bringing in these women to say, hey, he did this stuff, he did that stuff. What happens? Because if you did it to those people, you did it to her. Oh, I see there's a propensity in the jurors. Money, you're guilty because there's strength in numbers. Yeah, not good. So they got to be careful the way they prosecute that case against them. 

03:35 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
I mean, I'm interested in seeing what the evidence is I gotta ask you about one more, because I'm following the karen reed's trial oh, that one. 

03:42 - James Porfido (Guest)
I you know I've been following off and on that case. 

03:44 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
That's a fascinating case. You think she's going down or not? Oh, no. Ok. 

03:52 - James Porfido (Guest)
Absolutely not, and I'll tell you for a lot of reasons. Defense attorneys do an awesome job. The prosecutor has withheld a lot of the investigation and turned it over late in the game. I think the jury is going to see through this at some point. 

04:09 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
These points are explored with the jury, if they get an opportunity to say it and there was already a hung jury. 

04:12 - James Porfido (Guest)
They couldn't make a decision. 

04:13 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
The evidence is really scant. It's really scant. I can't wait to see it. 

04:16 - James Porfido (Guest)
Text messages, and I don't know that they're so compelling. 

04:20 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
Right, I think I was a prosecuting attorney in another life, because I can't get enough of that stuff. So really, absolutely love it. Yeah, I love it, and I say what's old is new again, because if you turn on netflix. 

04:29 - Stacey Grant (Host)
What's on? Oh yeah, and as brothers, 100 percent oj and scott peter's cases. 

04:34 - James Porfido (Guest)
I did those cases on court tv right 1994, 1995, 1996. 

04:42 - Stacey Grant (Host)
did you know oj was guilty when he was going through the whole thing Like did you? He might say he's not. 

04:47 - James Porfido (Guest)
There were. No, there was more than overwhelming evidence. I think it was just. You know, there were so many things, so many variables. 

04:54
In that case. I think it was the jury, the composition of the jury, the moving of the case. The venue of the case was moved from Brentwood to LA. Marsha Clark and Christopher Darden were outgunned and outmanned. They had the best of the best on the defense side. If you look at the counsel that he had and you know, look, things just happened to fall into place. I think he's guilty. I think he was always guilty. I just think the jury didn't want to find him guilty. That was the bottom line. And then Menendez brothers I, that was the bottom line. 

05:26
And then Menendez I don't know what the hell's going on with that mess, how these guys can now make an application to be resentenced and be released and then they get a sympathetic DA. Well, where is he now? Where is Gaspar now? Where is he? He didn't get reelected, he got tossed from the job. The Menendez brothers become victims and we forget that they executed their parents in cold blood and then they lied about it. They lied, they said it was a was a mafia hit. And let's not forget that the one brother went outside, reloaded the shotgun and went back in and shot the mom again. Yeah, and I think there were like 28 shotgun blasts and there were adults, and then, of course, they went on a spending spree. 

06:03 - Stacey Grant (Host)
OK, so your book is called Unequal Justice. Right behind you, Unequal Justice. Why did you name the book that it? 

06:09 - James Porfido (Guest)
really was like 35 years of experience on both sides of counsel table, both as a prosecutor and as a defense attorney, and seeing the system work, the criminal justice system, from both sides of the courtroom. And it became more apparent to me as time went on representing the accused, that the system had some imbalances. 

06:31 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
So it's weighted against the defense right, it's weighted against the person who could potentially be innocent. It's weighted in favor of the prosecution. 

06:38 - James Porfido (Guest)
I felt that and I felt that the judges went into the way they say certain things, whether they're partisan or not. 

07:06 - Stacey Grant (Host)
Why would a judge push for the prosecution over the defense, though? What would be the reason why they wouldn't be like looking to make sure that this innocent person gets free? Well, they may not believe that. 

07:19 - James Porfido (Guest)
The person is innocent, they may have a predisposition, they may believe and be aligned with the prosecution and if you're representing someone charged with something, that's a terrible crime or a horrible situation, I think the public reaction or public perceptions that this person is guilty and they should be behind bars and they're a danger to society. Unfortunately, judges forget that their role is to be neutral, unbiased, detached, impartial. 

07:50 - Stacey Grant (Host)
So how much can lawyers influence that with the judge? 

07:53 - James Porfido (Guest)
A lot of it is standing up to I don't want to say a bully judge, but that does happen, believe it or not, and it does take a certain type of individual to stand their ground. And I've seen a lot of lawyering on both sides and not everybody has the same energy or drive or ambition to make sure that their client is adequately represented in the courtroom. 

08:17 - Stacey Grant (Host)
You were starting off as a prosecutor. What made you cross over to the other side? Just because of that? You know how you felt it was unjust. 

08:24 - James Porfido (Guest)
Well, no, actually it was a case that I had prosecuted. It involved a particular case a vehicle or homicide involving the killing of a mom with her three children in the car. The driver of the other vehicle was more than two times the legal limit of intoxication and he was driving in extreme reckless manner. He was going through red lights, he was doing 85 miles an hour. He had gone on the shoulder on the median. Many people had called the police about this driving conduct in this individual. They were very concerned and ultimately he broadsided this mom who had the right of way, the light was in her direction, she was crossing an intersection on a highway and was killed, and her husband was an attorney, and the vehicular homicide laws we have today are not the laws that existed then, which was death by auto, and then an individual could be sentenced to 270 days of county jails or 270 days of community service, depending upon whether or not they had any pre-existing history or record. So I explained this to him and his response would be what anyone would say is that the impact, the result, is the same. Whether it's a gun, a knife, doesn't matter. The instrumentality causing the death was a car and this individual was drunk. Why should he be treated differently? 

09:38
We went forward with an indictment for aggravated manslaughter, just so the listeners understand. It's really a killing, a murder without a purpose or intent. It's reckless, extreme indifference to the value of human life. So he was indicted for aggravated manslaughter and he faced 20 years state prison. He was tried by a jury and convicted and the husband embarked upon a campaign to change the laws of New Jersey. 

10:03
And what are now our laws today? They're named after his wife, terry's. Laws are in place where you face now a mandatory sentencing of three to five years in state prison if you cause a death, no matter what your situation is, no matter what your prior record is. It's a mandatory sentencing, takes the discretion away from the court. Well, I got involved with him and he started a foundation speaking to high school students about the dangers of drinking and driving and drug and alcohol awareness, discussing the case and the impact of it and the sentencing of this individual, and he himself was killed. He, tragically, was running by the site where his wife was killed and he was hit by a car and killed. 

10:44
The same exact location, the same exact location, just literally a stone's throw. So I left the prosecutor's office in 1997. He was killed on September 19th 1997. And I put my resignation in, I think the next day I took his place on the board and I spoke to high school students about the case, about the tragedy involving his wife and about the laws changing. So I spoke to about 75,000 high school students over two years. 

11:13 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
James, why did you switch? What was it about that that made you say I don't want to be a prosecutor anymore? 

11:18 - James Porfido (Guest)
Well, I felt like I had more to do. There was more of an impact I could make by taking on that role that he had and I I was concerned about the foundation he had created. I got to know him through the course of the case and the prosecution and the investigation stages and all of that, and he was an attorney himself. We got along, we, we, we connected and and when he died it was obviously a traumatic event for everybody, you know, the community and certainly his family, his three children that survived, you know, losing both their mom and dad, and I felt there really was an impact to be made and I felt that I could do that, more than being a prosecutor trying, you know, prosecuting individual cases. So I became a defense attorney. 

12:02 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
if you had started as a defense attorney, do you think you ever would have made the switch to prosecution? It's hard to say that's a great question. Yeah, um, probably not no, what do you think would have stopped you? I think fighting for the accused becomes a mindset. 

12:19 - James Porfido (Guest)
but I think I went about it very differently. I had a different mindset, like having had the experience of being a prosecutor, I always thought like a prosecutor. I never changed my thinking. In fact, I thought it made me a better defense attorney. I found a lot of deficiencies in investigations and in prosecutions with respect to the evidence, and that's what I I don't want to say. I exploited it, but I certainly brought that to the attention of the prosecutor. It resulted in, you know, a better outcome either the dismissal of a case against the client or a better plea deal where we negotiate a better resolution other than the maximum sentence. So I felt it made me a very effective defense attorney. 

12:54 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
So defense attorneys, especially like personal injury lawyers, they get a bad rap right. You look at the prosecutors as the heroes. They're taking down the criminals, they're putting the criminals away. I had a good friend of mine worked for the DA's office at, I'll say, one of the top six cities in America and he left and he couldn't take it. And he was talking to me one day and he said and I brought it up and he said, listen, I left because it is filled with the worst type of people. And I always struggle with that because I'm sure you know some very good people that are prosecutors, work in the city, that type of thing. But it always struck me that it drove him out. Was there any element of that that drove you out to become a defense attorney? 

13:34 - James Porfido (Guest)
There's a lot of frustration, I think, in occupying that role and it is a responsibility and obligation that you have to take very seriously and I always did, In fact, I think I discuss it in my book is the role of a prosecutor speaking to a jury and that alliance with the jury because you're paying your salary through their taxpayer funds. I can understand the idea that you know working within that system, you want to make changes and sometimes you're limited as to what you can do. You have to work within the fabric of the system, the rules of the system, and it's not always good. 

14:13 - Stacey Grant (Host)
As a defense attorney, you probably had some clients who were guilty that you had to defend right? Are you the kind of lawyer who's like I don't want to know if you're guilty? Or did you had to defend right? Were you? Are you the kind of lawyer who's like I don't want to know if you're guilty, or did you want to know? 

14:24 - James Porfido (Guest)
yeah, I did not want to know I viewed my, I viewed my responsibility as I have an obligation. People would say to me question how can you represent somebody that's accused of doing something or or that did something? They would never say accused someone that did something so horrible. Never say accused someone that did something so horrible. 

14:42 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
That I'd say in response is that we all have rights see, I always thought that, as a defense attorney, you'd want to know. Just I can defend you. I need to know what I'm working with. Tell me, did you do it or did you not? 

14:53 - James Porfido (Guest)
I did not do that I looked at the evidence and I say the evidence supports the state's theory, or their prosecution, or the elements of the offenses can all be met. So we need to have a conversation about trying to to resolve this. Yeah, negotiate a resolution. You know people don't like the idea of plea bargaining, but it's a necessary evil because our system, quite frankly, couldn't function without it. 

15:18 - Stacey Grant (Host)
I mean, I'm sure there are times when you looked at someone you're like, oh, I'm not going to think about it, but that person definitely did this crime right. 

15:27 - James Porfido (Guest)
I don't know that I ever looked at someone and said you're guilty. 

15:29 - Stacey Grant (Host)
I don't know that I could say Well, not just from what they look like, obviously, but I'm saying like looked at the evidence looked at the evidence, looked at what the? 

15:42 - James Porfido (Guest)
prosecution had, especially as a former prosecutor. 

15:43
Yeah Easy for you to I got to be a pretty good read of people's Right Over the years and I could tell from their demeanor, their approach, some of the responses to questions whether or not and that probably swayed me in a lot of ways too. How hard was I going to fight for that person? That's just in the lot of ways too. You know how hard was I going to fight for that person, you know. You know that's just in the back of your mind. Everybody gets the same fight. You know they don't get James Porfito one versus James Porfito two. So I never looked at it that way, but maybe it did factor in? 

16:16 - Stacey Grant (Host)
Did you see, like trends of certain people who faced more consequences than other people in the system, or some like whether it be law enforcement? And there's a story that you have about a police officer who you thought didn't get the consequences that he deserved for a domestic abuse trial? There is a case. 

16:33 - James Porfido (Guest)
I talk about very specifically about a police officer who was involved in a domestic violence incident. He was a sergeant in a police department in a pretty big city in New Jersey and I named it Newark Police. I had a restraining order issued against him and I was a young prosecutor at the time and he was not represented by counsel and he was engaging in conduct that was basically violating the terms and the conditions of the no contact of the order. 

16:59
And I had many discussions with him about his behavior and how it could have some significant consequences on his job as well as his liberty, you know, in terms of being imprisoned. If he continued to do this, he could go to jail and he would lose everything lose his job. We had this discussion on more than one occasion because he had come to court a couple of times and I encountered him more than once and it was some bizarre behavior where he was, you know, following his wife they could still his wife. At the time they were, they were going through a divorce and one of the situations he actually jumped off of a roof when she was at a party and it was really bizarre and I told him that it's kind of just way over the top and you know, it was clearly in violation of the law and he was being treated maybe a little bit differently because he was a police officer. Sadly, he went on to kill his wife's new boyfriend. 

17:57 - Stacey Grant (Host)
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18:17 - James Porfido (Guest)
And back to the show. He went into the home in violation of the order and she was engaged in a sexual act with this other individual and he shot him dead and he went to trial for that and I truly believe that I would be called as a witness because of my prior dealings with him. And I was not called as a witness. The lead prosecutor of the case did not think it would be a good idea to put me on the stand for a number of reasons which I didn't dispute or debate. 

18:44
quite frankly, it was his case to prosecute, but he was ultimately acquitted by the jury and found not guilty of shooting this defenseless naked man. 

18:54
Not guilty, not guilty, lesser charged, just not guilty, and I went on to say that he was rewarded by his police department by being promoted to a captain Wow, and he retired as a captain on a very nice pension funded by New Jersey taxpayers. I don't know how they accepted. His defense was that he was an intruder in the house and he shot the intruder in the house. That was defense. A naked intruder. 

19:16 - Stacey Grant (Host)
Yeah, yeah. 

19:17 - James Porfido (Guest)
I don't know that an intruder would be in bed with your wife. 

19:20 - Stacey Grant (Host)
Yeah, intruder yeah, yeah. I don't know that an intruder would be in bed with your wife. Yeah, yeah, that seems like unequal justice. 

19:23 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
To me that's an obvious example, I think, hearing what you just said of of unequal justice to your point, is there another one that just kind of stands out? So many Just shake your head. 

19:32 - James Porfido (Guest)
There are cases in the book that I talk about. One chapter is called the killing of MM and death by prison. It was a young woman who was sexually um cost it outside of a health club by a man who was um masked and had a hooded sweatshirt on. There was a voice lineup of six voices and she picked his voice out and one of the identifying characteristics she gave is that when he put his hand over her mouth to cover her mouth from screaming, she smelled his hand and she said that it was rancid. It was a terrible odor. So there was an onlooker. The police had responded to the scene. She was robbed. The police had responded to the scene, she was robbed and, interestingly, $20 was taken from her in denominations of a 10, a 5, and 5 singles. 

20:20
This individual, who was an onlooker and he was expressing an interest in what the police were doing, asked one of the police officers who happened to be a lieutenant at the scene, and he said hey, do you mind if I smell your hand? And sure enough, his hand smelled rancid. That was exactly how she had described it. They did the voice line up and she identified his voice as the individual and in his hooded sweatshirt pocket that he had on when he was arrested a ten dollar bill, a five and four singles and a dirty pizza napkin, he had just bought a slice of pizza and paid a dollar for it, and they were able to determine that he had actually just purchased a slice of pizza using a single. So it matched up exactly. 

21:03
We went to trial and he was convicted. He was sentenced to 60 years in state prison, 30 years without parole, for sexually assaulting her, robbing her and basically removing her from the health club. The case was brought back to the judge for resentencing shortly after because the appellate court said the sentencing was excessive and the judge resentenced him to 40 years, 20 years without state prison. Within about seven months he was killed in prison, the young woman that was coming out of the health club. Unfortunately, she became addicted to drugs and she died of a drug overdose some years later. 

21:39 - Stacey Grant (Host)
I'm thinking about our listeners out there who are probably wondering okay, well, what should I be doing? What happens if I get accused of something I didn't do? What's my best course of action? Do you have an answer for them? 

21:54 - James Porfido (Guest)
do. What's my best course of action is that do you have an answer for them? Well, I, what I would tell any client that was involved in an investigation involving the police is to, you know, assert your fifth amendment right to not say anything, because I've had so many cases go sideways, uh, particularly sex cases, which I did a lot of over the years, these type of date rape cases. You know where it's a he said she said no physical evidence, no corroborating evidence. Is it consensual or was it done against an IOUs woman, against her wishes, against her will, in violation of the law, by force, threats or coercion? And you know an interview with the police, innocuous interview, you know, basically harmless, seamless. Yes, I know that person. Ok, that's one check. Were you alone with that person? Yes, that's another check. Did you kiss that person? Yes, I did. That's another check. Now we filled in three out of four. We don't need to get to the sexual act because we've already covered three of the bases. 

22:56 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
I tell my son every day don't talk to the police. I mean, he's only 16. He probably won't have to, but I do not answer. I want to do it. I know you're thinking about your son. 

23:00 - Stacey Grant (Host)
But I'm thinking about a woman who actually had that, probably had that happen to her, and then she goes in and answers those questions and then all of a sudden you know it could be flipped it could be turned around. 

23:11 - James Porfido (Guest)
But what I witnessed on my side as the defense attorney is that what we use in New Jersey is what are called consensual overhears. These are phone calls in which the victim, with the police sitting right next to her, will call up this individual and say certain things very scripted, and get them to make certain admissions on the phone and once they record that phone call, that's damaging evidence against the person because it's their own words. Now, that's the way around the wiretap law, where they don't have to actually get a warrant from a judge to authorize that type of conduct or behavior. It's simply the prosecutor's function to allow the police to do this. They're allowed to do that as an investigative tool and I had many, many, many cases over the years where this has happened. 

23:58
And you know and I'll use men because I've represented primarily men in these situations I'm sorry, I'm sorry this happened. Well, that's viewed as an admission. Sorry for what Sorry? You feel the way. You feel, sorry that this happened, sorry for anything. Sorry doesn't mean it's an admission of guilt. But many prosecutors viewed that as an admission of guilt and they would run with that and they'd say well, we have your client apologizing and I'd say, that doesn't really mean anything that's not evidence of anything. 

24:30
What are they sorry? 

24:31 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
for. 

24:32 - Stacey Grant (Host)
Yeah, so it's not evidence of anything. What are they sorry for? Yeah, so it's not illegal. Like I thought, when you recorded somebody on the phone you had to say to them I'm recording you right now. 

24:39 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
I think it depends on your state not not in a consensual over here. 

24:42 - James Porfido (Guest)
It's a investigative tool that's utilized by the police. They have the authority through the supervising prosecutor, and there are some forms that you get which authorize the police to engage in this conduct. Okay, and they're basically interviewing the accused without the accused knowing it, because they're running their questions through the alleged victim. They're basically, you know, coaching the victim and that doesn't always go well, quite frankly, and it doesn't look well, you know, because we get access to the recordings of that which show them on the camera. It's videotaped. That's a little bit, you know some people would be offended by that. You know that the victim is being coached by the police, basically getting around the requirements of the law, which is how. 

25:33 - Stacey Grant (Host)
I would present it in defense, right? Okay, so don't say anything to the police. That's the number one thing. What's the second thing? 

25:41 - James Porfido (Guest)
Well, the second thing is most people don't really encounter police in those situations where they're investigated for serious stuff. Most encounters with the police are roadside stops for traffic infractions and in those situations my advice is very different Be respectful, be polite, be courteous and nine times out of 10, acknowledging that there's a reason why they pulled you over helps, you know, because it diffuses the situation. It deescalates the situation because you know, look, I, I know a lot of police officers and they have a hard job, and to walk up to a car in the middle of the night and not what, knowing what they're encountering, that's a dangerous job. It's a dangerous position to be put in and right away saying, look, I must not have, you know, used my blinker, or I, maybe I went, you know, went through the yellow light, maybe it would turn red. I, you know if you can diffuse it. You know, use my blinker. Or I, maybe I went, you know, went through the yellow light. Maybe it would turn red. I, you know if you can diffuse it, you know what you got to take it, move on. 

26:37
Some people think it's their job, their responsibility, their obligation to fight with the police officer on the side of the road. Ah, you had no reason to get me over. Why'd you pull me over? Yet it already escalates. It's turning this thing up a level that it really doesn't need to go. I take your ticket, get out and fight it in the courts. Yeah, hire an attorney, go to court. 

26:57 - Stacey Grant (Host)
Hire an attorney. How about, like DUIs? 

27:13 - James Porfido (Guest)
work. In my practice People are pulled over for suspicion. But they can be pulled over for just a traffic infraction. But the officer notices an odor or detects an odor of alcohol and they can attribute the erratic driving to the effects of the alcohol. They are going to ask you to get out of the car and perform standardized fieldside sobriety tests. Based upon how you perform on those, the likelihood is you're going to get arrested or not. Probably nine times out of 10, you'll probably get arrested because most people can't do those tests under normal conditions. 

27:39 - Stacey Grant (Host)
I don't think I'd be able to do any of that. I know it'd be bad. 

27:43 - James Porfido (Guest)
Then the next step in that process is the breath test. So you have to look at the technical aspects. You become basically, I'll say, an amateur scientist looking at how the test results were done. Did the officers follow the proper protocols? Is the machine accurate? Has it been properly certified? Has the simulator solution been changed? There's a lot of things to look at. 

28:06 - Stacey Grant (Host)
So there's a lot. Can you refuse the breathalyzer? Is that you cannot? 

28:10 - James Porfido (Guest)
That's like a strict liability. So you face separate consequences for refusal in addition to the DWI. And why not take the breath test? Because there's a chance you could be under the legal limit. Once you say no, you basically seal the deal. 

28:26 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
What's the most hopeful thing you could say to? 

28:28 - James Porfido (Guest)
anybody who's watching. 

28:29 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
I love that. 

28:29 - James Porfido (Guest)
You know, I just got to believe that. You know there's a new generation coming forward and that things will be different. I mean, I don't know what to say. It's really about the people that are appointed to these positions and are occupying these jobs. It's really an important role and responsibility. You know, things are changing, times are changing. I'm hopeful you know I'm optimistic, not pessimistic that there will be changes, but I've looked at so much bad in the past. I think, in light of current events, that there is a white cast on some of the problems with the system. You know, I'm seeing that now. We're seeing judges now recusing themselves from cases where they should not be involved in the case because they have a partisan interest, although we're seeing it on the federal level. Now we have judges that are trying to legislate from the bench because they don't agree with certain viewpoints regarding immigration or whatever it may be. Whatever your political views are on things, they may be overstepping their boundaries. 

29:36 - Stacey Grant (Host)
If you're in a situation as some of our audience might be where they need a lawyer, how do you know? How do you know how to choose the best lawyer? 

29:46 - James Porfido (Guest)
That's a great question, and here's what I would tell a prospective client. That's a great question and here's what I would tell a prospective client. Listen, you may not like me, that's okay, You're entitled to that. But if you feel that I'm the best person, you feel that I'm the most qualified, the most competent, the most capable, I have the skills and the background and you're going to be happy that I'm in the courtroom with you arguing for you that I'm your person. If not and the other part of that is, not only am I going to be the advocate, I'm also going to be an educator If I'm not explaining to you what's happening and you're in the dark and this is a mystery to you and you don't understand this, I'm not your person. 

30:28
That's not me. I have to occupy both those responsibilities. I take them very seriously. It's important. Having the right person representing you is important, and maybe not so much so in a speeding case or you know, but if it's a serious offense, you better know that that attorney knows what they're doing. You know they're not just a warm body standing next to you. 

30:51 - Stacey Grant (Host)
Right, I think it's so, so important. 

30:53 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
I think it's really hard to find someone. 

30:56 - Stacey Grant (Host)
Well, we know you. 

30:57 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
Well. 

30:58 - Stacey Grant (Host)
I'm technically not practicing what was my practice in 2023? 

31:03 - James Porfido (Guest)
And I'm of counsel with the firm. We have 50 attorneys and I am a consultant now in the criminal section and I'm also a law professor, which I do, you know, more time as an adjunct, teaching persuasion and advocacy, so I'm in a different place. You know, I did that for 35 years and I enjoyed it and then it got to a point in time where I felt like it was time to do something different, like writing a book and talking to you Right, and so Unequal Justice is on Amazon. 

31:32 - Stacey Grant (Host)
It's at Barnes, noble. 

31:33 - James Porfido (Guest)
So it's the search for truth to balance the scales is the name of the book. It's a website through the publishing company dedicated to the book wwwunequal-justicecom. I've been doing a lot of talking about the book and you know it's good to be with you guys and you're killing it. That's good. It's good to be with you guys. 

31:48 - Stacey Grant (Host)
And you're killing it. That's good, that's what you're doing, yeah. 

31:51 - Mark Lubragge (Host)
You know you can't call him the next time you're thrown in the back of a car I know, I can't Be careful what you're getting thrown in the back of a car for. 

31:59 - Stacey Grant (Host)
Well, okay, that's good advice right there. Okay, fair enough. 

32:01 - James Porfido (Guest)
No, we can't, thank you enough and it was a good conversation, a lot of good topics and discussion about some things that are really important. 

32:13 - Stacey Grant (Host)
For sure, thank you for what you're doing. 

32:15 - James Porfido (Guest)
Thank you. 

32:21 - Stacey Grant (Host)
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