Most of Us Are ‘On the Spectrum’ - Why Your Lighting and Space Might Be Making You Sick | Ep 095

🗣️60% of people are either neurodivergent or highly sensitive - yet every space is designed for the other 40%.

Stephanie Lee Jackson is a sensory interior designer who creates spaces for people's actual nervous systems. She designs homes where Mom has ADHD, Dad codes from home, one kid is sensory-seeking, and another is neurotypical - all in one house.

Key insights:

🗣️ Fluorescent lights prevent many neurodivergent people from thinking - their brains can't create visual images under that flickering
🗣️Ambient noise makes conversation impossible for people who can't filter background chaos
🗣️Bars turn up music so you drink more (shouting makes you thirsty)
🗣️High-functioning autistic people hitting total meltdown in their 50s because masking energy finally caught up
🗣️Some people are "sensory seeking" - they NEED coffee shop noise or music to focus

Five principles for better spaces:

🗣️Indirect lighting (not recessed lights pointing down)
🗣️Sound baffling in open spaces
🗣️Neutral air quality before adding scents
🗣️Reduce visual overwhelm
🗣️Trust your body's signals

Resources:
Website: PracticalSanctuary.com
Book: "The Eccentric Genius Habitat Intervention" (September 5, 2024)
Free sensory cheat sheet available

Chapters:
[00:01] Introduction & Hosts Preview
[01:22] Meet Stephanie Lee Jackson
[01:29] What Is Sensory Interior Design?
[03:04] Why Designers Don't Think About This
[03:59] Neurodivergent vs Highly Sensitive
[05:23] Retail Store Example: Neurotypical vs Neurodivergent
[07:48] The Sensory Seeking Reality
[08:56] Real Family Design Example
[13:38] Zones for Different Neurotypes
[15:48] How She Got Into This Work
[16:52] Her Book: Eccentric Genius Habitat Intervention
[18:00] Why Febreze Is Evil
[19:33] Visual Overwhelm and Bookshelves
[20:55] Advice for Average Person
[22:25] The Five Key Principles
[24:55] Color and Lighting Advice
[26:06] How to Reach Stephanie
[26:53] Closing

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Transcript

00:01 - Stacey (Host)
Mark, I am. I have to say I'm genuinely excited to talk to Stephanie Lee Jackson today. 

00:08 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, so am I. It's something that it's an incredible topic nobody's talking about. 

00:13 - Stacey (Host)
That's what got me? I don't think anyone's talking about this that I know of. 

00:17 - Mark (Host)
I've never heard of it. Until we found her, I had never heard that this was a thing. 

00:20 - Stacey (Host)
Sensory interior design for those who are neurodivergent or highly sensitive. 

00:27 - Mark (Host)
All the stuff we take for granted, not only in our homes but in retail stores hospitals, hospitals, schools, elementary schools. 

00:35 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah, nobody's thinking about the design, stephanie says that 60% of people are either neurodivergent or highly sensitive. 

00:43 - Mark (Host)
She works with families whose homes are not designed for the various neurodivergent or highly sensitive, but she works with families whose homes are not designed for the various neurodivergent people in the same family that inhabit the home, as well as neurotypical people in the same family. 

00:55 - Stacey (Host)
So I mean, it's just a fascinating conversation I think that we're about to have. Who's talking about it? So I can't wait to talk to her. 

01:01 - Mark (Host)
Her book is going to be called, when it comes out, the Eccentric Genius Habitat Intervention. It's about interior design for highly sensitive people. So, we're happy to have her on the show. 

01:15 - Stacey (Host)
Hi, I'm Stacey. 

01:16 - Mark (Host)
And I am Mark, and this is the Gurus at Game Changers podcast. 

01:22 - Stacey (Host)
Welcome, Stephanie Lee Jackson. Thank you for having me. What is sensory interior design? 

01:29 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
Sensory interior design is creating a space that supports the nervous systems of the people who use it, Takes into account things like acoustics, things like smell, color, vibration, texture and lighting, and tunes that for the nervous systems of the people who are using the space. For example, many neurodivergent people cannot create a visual image in their visual cortex under a fluorescent light. It just simply won't work. 

02:09
So they can't imagine something they can't literally see. If there's a fluorescent light, they can't focus on things because their brains are perceiving the flickering and it can't track and create an image on the visual cortex. That's an extreme case. Create an image on the visual cortex. 

02:24
That's an extreme case. More commonly, many divergent neurodivergent people cannot track a conversation If there's ambient chaotic noise around, like if we're sitting in a cafe, it's nice and quiet in here, but if we were in a cafe and there was like rattling and there's conversations and there's music going on, many neurodivergent people can't filter out that ambient acoustic chaos in order just to track what we are saying. So many spaces are functionally inaccessible to people whose brains are neurodivergent. 

03:04 - Mark (Host)
that's a lot to think about for somebody designing a space. 

03:08 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
It is. 

03:09 - Mark (Host)
And that's why they don't think about it. 

03:10 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
Yes, it is easy and cheap to design a space for the average nervous system. 

03:19 - Mark (Host)
Yeah. 

03:20 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
It is a little. It takes a little bit more consideration. It takes a little bit more consideration. Not necessarily that much more expense, but the time and the processing to design a space that's inclusive for everyone's sensory profile just takes a little bit more study. Right, and contractors and designers are not necessarily thinking about that. 

03:49 - Stacey (Host)
Well, just for our audience, like before we get deeply into this, like what is neurodivergent and how is it different than highly sensitive, and how are those people different? 

03:59 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
Neurodivergence is defined as a difference in patterns of brain perception and processing. Your sensory receptors pick up data from around you. Your brain makes sense of it and processes it and then tells you what to do. A neurodivergent person's brain is going to be picking up more or different sensory processing data and prioritizing it in different ways than a neurotypical person. Neurodivergent is defined as autism spectrum. That includes ADHD. Some people include OCD in that A highly sensitive person is not necessarily neurodivergent. But a highly sensitive person's brain is picking up more data and processing it more deeply than the average person's brain. So both neurodivergent and highly sensitive people can more easily become overwhelmed when too much sensory data is coming at them. It's harder to filter, harder to process and harder to get make a good decision in the right amount of time, to get something done in that overwhelming environment can I drill down a little bit on that? 

05:23 - Stacey (Host)
so so if a neurotypical person, as you say, walks into a retail store versus a neurodivergent person, what would each see separately? 

05:35 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
Yes, with a neurodivergent person, it would completely depend on them, because if you've met one neurodivergent person, you've met one neurodivergent person. You've met one neurodivergent person. They're all very, very different. A neurotypical person has a brain that's going to be able to track and focus on what they want and narrow in on it and go to it, and they're going to be able to easily filter out anything that's not relevant to what they want. A neurodivergent person will not necessarily have those filters. 

06:11
Highly sensitive person will find it harder to filter. So if, as a highly sensitive person with maybe a highly developed sense of smell, if you're going to walk into a retail store that has a signature scent that's sprayed everywhere and then has a pretty loud soundtrack and has like a lot of displays that are very colorful, that's going to come like this tsunami of sensory information. That's going to be you're going to be taking using energy just to manage it. First of all, it's going to be so you're going to get tired faster and then you're going to have to find what you're looking for while filtering and processing all of that data, and by the time you find what you're looking for, your brain has made so many decisions it's going to be harder to make the decision about what it is you actually are here for, so it's going to be draining. 

07:12
A neurodivergent person is going to have a similar experience, but depending on their sensory profile. Some neurodivergent people are sensory seeking, which means they need more stimulation. It needs to be more intense, or there's going to be a difference in each sense in terms of whether they need more or less. So a neurodivergent person's experience is going to be very, very different depending on their own sensory profile so I find this fascinating me too, the seeking part. 

07:48 - Mark (Host)
So you're saying some people. This is why some people can't sit at a desk alone. They need to go to a coffee shop or they need music playing while they're doing a task there's not enough stimulation yeah, the exact opposite, exactly the exact opposite. Oh my god, that might be me make assumptions, that could be you. I'm not the other, but I never thought that I could be the seeker. Yes, absolutely. 

08:09 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
I could sit quietly, but I'd rather have music playing. I'd rather be at a coffee shop than at my desk at home. 

08:15 - Mark (Host)
That's fascinating. 

08:16 - Stacey (Host)
Isn't that crazy? Well, also, I've recently found out that ADD or ADHD doesn't necessarily mean that you're. You know, you can be very focused and have ADD or ADHD as well. Hyper focus. 

08:28 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
That is a notorious or famous aspect of ADHD. You're either easily distractible, but when you get into your own flow you can hyper focus Right. So that's a superpower of people with ADHD. 

08:42 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah, superpower of people with ADHD? Yeah, but you were saying earlier that about 60% of people have some sort of a high sensitivity. 

08:50 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
Maybe not on a daily basis, but they have that. 

08:51 - Stacey (Host)
So why are spaces designed for neurotypical people? 

08:56 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
We have systems which are designed to make things cheap and simple for the people building them. That's the short answer that if you really want to make something tailored for a specific demographic and a specific activity, it takes a lot more research and a lot more decisions and, frankly, it's just easier to have it be the lowest com denominator, easier and cheaper. We're not building spaces with master craftsmen in a small place for a few number of people. We're building really big spaces for the masses as fast and cheaply as we can, and there's a time and place for that. But when we have an increasingly higher percentage of people diagnosed with neurodivergence, it's becoming more crucial that we start to consider how we're building our environment, because we're structurally excluding people that have those kinds of sense of sensitivities which make it difficult or impossible to function in an average space. 

10:09 - Mark (Host)
Wow you know, I think it's interesting because I think it's more designed by the marketers than it is by people like you. Oh, maybe Right, Like supermarkets, just as an aside. Like supermarkets pump out the smell of cinnamon buns. They will put down carpets where they want you to slow down your cart put down a throw rug. Oh yeah, They'll play certain music that makes shoppers linger more than other types of music. 

10:32
So it's the exact opposite. They don't care about the people at all. They care about designing the sound, the site to smell, the lighting, all of that to make money To sell more. 

10:41 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
Yes, right, bars are the worst. Bars intentionally turn up the volume on the music because if you have to shout, you're going to drink more If you have to shout you're thirsty? We talked about healthcare care, so in hospitals the lighting can affect people with neurodiversity. 

11:06 - Stacey (Host)
It makes me so angry. 

11:07 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
I have known many autistic people who died younger than they should have because the comprehensive wear and tear on their immune system from coping with all of this sensory stuff yeah, just you know, their body broke down at an early age and this happens mentally too. I have had many close friends who were on the spectrum realized it in retrospect that in their 50s they went into something called autistic meltdown, where they just stopped being able to function at all, just went from being like really, really productive, like superpower overachievers, to just not being able to get out of bed, not be able to make a decision, not be able to function. And when they went to the doctors and got like you know, like a neuropsych overview, turns out that they were undiagnosed high functioning autism spectrum and the amount of energy it takes to cope in the world. When you're masking all of this extra sensitivity or differences that you've got to kind of navigate at some point your brain just breaks down and you just can't anymore and it's a physiological breakdown. 

12:28 - Mark (Host)
I have had multiple. Do you know this? No, that's crazy. It seems like a tall order for any retail store. Hospital, hospitals, maybe just some low-hanging fruit there, but take a typical retail store. It seems like a tall order for them to design with everyone in mind. Is it so? Sights, smell, color, sound, texture. I'm trying to think everything you rattled off in the beginning. What if, even in a family, you could have people that are sensitive to all different things? 

13:05 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
Oh, yes, and that's what I do. 

13:07 - Stacey (Host)
Okay, let's get into this. This episode is brought to you by Mainline Studios and the Podcast Factory, where great content feels right at home. Located in beautiful wayne, pennsylvania, our creative rental space offers high-end tech in a space that feels like your best friend's living room. Book your session or a free tour at mainlinevideostudiocom, and back to the show sensory boundaries for different neurotypes is huge, particularly particularly in a family. 

13:38 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
I mean, with a store, it's easy, because you have a clientele. You design for this clientele. You know, if you're a sound system store, you design for sound geeks. Yes, you'd have acoustic baffling, you'd have the systems. That's easy. 

13:54
When you have people of multiple neurotypes having to work or live together, that's harder. You need to designate spaces for different activities and different people. For example, I'm working with a family right now Mom has ADHD, dad is a coder, works from home. Son is five years old, on the spectrum sensory seeking very loud. Daughter's four years old, neurotypical very sweet. 

14:28
Their new house has zones for each person, each neurotype and each activity. Wow, each neurotype and each activity. Whoa, they're moving from a one bedroom to a five bedroom. Not before time, because having those four different people piled on top of each other in a small space was really stressful for all of them, I'll bet. But we have family areas that are brightly colored, that are made for activity and interaction and all kinds of sensory input. We have sleeping areas that are intentionally designed to induce calm with the color and the lighting. We have the. There's two or two rooms that are darker. I said okay, those two are the bedrooms, and then the office is brighter but calmer, with acoustic baffling, so that the circadian energy, the lighting, is gonna induce wakefulness and productivity, but then the sound baffling is gonna reduce sound input for focus and then the primary bedroom is calming. 

15:44 - Stacey (Host)
How did you get into this? How do you even know how to do this? 

15:48 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
I got into massage because I was interested in helping people heal alternative healing. And only about two years in, one of my clients said Stephanie, stephanie, I just love that painting in your studio. Would you do something in my space? I want you to do my staircase risers. And I said no, I don't, I don't make art anymore. And she said well, I'll write you a check. 

16:10 - Mark (Host)
I said I do do that funny. 

16:12 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
You mentioned that that's hilarious, yes so I started turning the business skills that I had learned into like, oh, I love doing this, I love creating for specific people in a specific place, and so I realized I had this superpower, which was understanding how to make a whole space, create the vibe you wanted. And then the neurodivergence part came, because I love quirky people, and it turns out that I've been befriending neurodivergent people since the age of six or seven just because they're interesting, and I became an accidental expert. 

16:50 - Mark (Host)
And you have a book coming out this year. 

16:52 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
I have a book coming out this year it's called the Eccentric Genius Habitat Intervention Interior Design for highly sensitive people. 

17:03 - Mark (Host)
And people can get it and sort of audit their home and say is this really good for me or my kids or my husband? 

17:10 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
Yes, it takes you through your own nervous system, one sense at a time, and I go into how your nervous system works. I go into neurod nervous system works, I go into neurodivergence, I go into executive function and emotional regulation, which is how your brain relates to the world around, and then I take you through each sense. There are more than five senses and I go into that too. But with each sense I give you an assessment for understanding how your brain processes that particular sense. And then I give you some things you can do right now in your own space, and then next month in your own space, and then someday in your own space, because we can't change it all at once, right? 

17:57 - Stacey (Host)
Why is Febreze evil, evil? 

18:00 - Mark (Host)
why is we've been dying to know this? 

18:02 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
because it does not neutralize the source of the odor, it just masks it. So all of the things, for example, that make ammonia bad for your respiratory membrane, still there, you're still breathing. The ammonia febreze is just telling you you don't. 

18:23 - Stacey (Host)
And the other thing about that I was going to ask you about is when I, let's say, I'm looking at one of these bookshelves behind us, like and you know this, because when I build a set, if there's one thing that's like you know, that I feel like shouldn't be there, it's disturbing for me. Yes, right. 

18:43 - Mark (Host)
Yes, yes, which is disturbing for me to watch, right? 

18:46 - Stacey (Host)
So I think it's disturbing for people to watch who are not you? Know, who are neurotypical. 

18:50 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
But I do think I do have. 

18:51 - Mark (Host)
You're just a perfectionist when it comes to this. 

18:53 - Stacey (Host)
Well, that, but also like I think it doesn't. You know even the colors. 

18:55 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
Oh yes, so I think I identify. I'm one of those people that arranges bookshelves by color. 

19:06 - Stacey (Host)
Oh. 

19:06 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
And I was a librarian. 

19:08 - Stacey (Host)
This horrifies librarians. 

19:10 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
But you learn things about the publishing industry when you arrange your bookshelves by color. But a bookshelf is a visually very, very overstimulating thing. Yes, particularly when the books are all different colors. Yes, so my bookshelves are arranged first by subject and height and then, each shelf is arranged by color. 

19:33 - Stacey (Host)
And. 

19:34 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
I do this for my clients. I go in and they're just like okay, well, let's you work your magic. 

19:37 - Stacey (Host)
That would be so fun. It would be so fun for me, I would love that. Or just like okay, well, let's you work your magic. That would be so fun. It would be so fun for me, I would love that. Or like a mantle, like a fireplace mantle, like I can work on a fireplace mantle. This is embarrassing, Like hours and hours like this over, like an eighth of an inch this over, like you know what I mean. 

19:54 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
But, it's something you feel. 

19:55 - Stacey (Host)
Spatial. 

19:56 - Mark (Host)
Absolutely yes. I don't think that's something you learn Like sisters from another sister. The energy is off if it's not where it needs to be. It's what it is. 

20:01 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
So I think and I don't feel that Maybe why I really vibed with you as coming on as a guest, because I'm like this is so fascinating to me, but that's cool. 

20:11 - Stacey (Host)
Well, the average old is always awesome, so trust it, though I mean it's like you know. 

20:16 - Mark (Host)
I'm sure some people will look at and be like, like eric well, if that plant was an inch to the right, I don't think it would have the same right, but he'll. 

20:23 - Stacey (Host)
So eric will put maybe like three different size things on a shelf and just that's it, and he doesn't think about it no, it is what it is. 

20:31 - Mark (Host)
I'll be like what's your. 

20:32 - Stacey (Host)
What's your choice here? 

20:34 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
is that your way of saying I hate this, we're doing complex math when we're when we're doing this, it's like no, no, the physics of this are not quite right, and we stand over there. 

20:42 - Stacey (Host)
For our audience, either for someone who might walk into a space and feel uncomfortable, or someone who wants to make people feel more comfortable. What's your advice just for the average person, before they've read your book? 

20:55 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
Trust your own body. Trust your own body Really. Get in the habit of trusting your feelings. And your feelings are emotional, but emotional feelings are also physiological. If you say, okay, something doesn't feel right, stop. Scan your own body, your own body. Sense what's going on in my body here that that's making me uncomfortable. If your body is giving you cues, your nervous system has picked up on something that says danger, and that is also true with the sensory aspects of the room. 

21:35
If you're just like, oh, yeah, right, my head hurts, like what, what's going on here? Oh, I smelled something. Oh, I mean, those things are kind of obvious, but there are more subtle things really tuning into your own body, if you feel like your heart is thick and clenching, just like what's going on, what's happening, your body will give you an answer on what's happening. 

22:02 - Stacey (Host)
Your body will give you an answer and you're saying 60 of people experience some sort of highly, highly sensitive yes neurodivergence something. So there's more people that experience that than they don't so wouldn't it be time to at least figure? Out like is there a neutral? Maybe, maybe you don't have to change everything. But can you and this is for homeowners baby homeowners too, or whatever, who just want to make their house welcoming. What would that be? 

22:25 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
I have some five principles. 

22:28 - Stacey (Host)
Oh yeah, if you get on my website, yes, you can just, you know, basically a sensory cheat sheet. 

22:34 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
Just go through the five. Give us a few Light, sound, texture, visual texture, visual overwhelm and air quality. So things like with lighting in your house. Contractors love to put those recessed lightings with the bulbs pointing right down. Those are awful and that's considered standard issue and even high end. If I could just convince the majority of contractors to start installing lights that reflect off of surfaces where the bulbs are pointing up and reflecting off the ceiling or they're like sconces or filtered shades, that's huge. That's going to affect a lot of people as well. And with restaurants, if they could just stop with the industrial conversions. With no noise buffering, you can do a nice brick wall but for the love of all that is holy, put some sound baffling on that brick wall is there a color light that's better than other? 

23:45 - Stacey (Host)
another light like that? We have like a white light here, but artists prefer warm okay, most sensitive people prefer warm. 

23:54 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
You can use the full spectrum daylight for task lighting that points at a surface that you're working. It's much easier to cope with full spectrum if it's like, okay, I need this because I'm drafting, I'm doing surgery right, right have it. Have the the ball be physically below your eyeball, pointing at your work surface. A full spectrum light that's up here is gonna be it's. 

24:19 - Stacey (Host)
It's gonna be really hard so filtered in direct layered lighting, focused bright task lighting mm-hmm is is preferable that is some damn good advice that is well, this has got to be really rough, like this is rough, right? 

24:36 - Mark (Host)
yeah, it is so never have this in your house well, no one's gonna have these. 

24:39 - Stacey (Host)
No well, not that I can't fit that in our house, you're not gonna put that in the house it's for, so we can light the set is there? 

24:44 - Mark (Host)
is there a color that you should kind of stay away from, like really bright, loud, like right, like red? 

24:51 - Stacey (Host)
no no, it's entirely individual got it. 

24:55 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
colors are relative, they're relative to the context, they're relative to the lighting. They're relative to the context, they're relative to the lighting, they're relative to the natural light, which means they're relative to your spot on the globe and they're relative to what's next to them, so any color can work. It's just about the context. So yeah, I don't say avoid any colors, but I have. I could go on for days about color, and the chapter on color in my book is the longest because I was a painter for so long. 

25:27
And it is such a rich topic and it's experiential. So really, with colors, it's really about using the color and noticing how you feel in your body when you're interacting with that color Right, Is no smell or no aroma better than a good one? 

25:43 - Stacey (Host)
Oh, the good one is so subjective, right, start with none. 

25:48 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
Yes, the good one is subjective. Start by getting it neutral first, and then you can start adding it in, and that's also experiential and also very personal. 

25:58 - Stacey (Host)
There's just so much more to this. I'm looking forward to reading your book, but how can people get in touch with you and if people have questions, which I know they will after they watch this? 

26:06 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
Yes, they can go to my website, practicalsanctuarycom. They can get on my mailing list. They can schedule a video Q&A if they want to have me talk with them about their space and if I could help with that. And if they're on their mailing list, they will get advanced warning of when my book launches. 

26:28 - Stacey (Host)
When do you think it's coming out? 

26:29 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
It should be, September 5th of this year. 

26:30 - Mark (Host)
Wow, it's coming up so exciting. Yes, I'm in the proofing stages. 

26:36 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
It's a lot. 

26:36 - Stacey (Host)
Well, you have to come back when your book comes out. Oh, that would be wonderful. Yeah, it's a lot. 

26:38 - Mark (Host)
Well, you have to come back when your book comes out. Oh, that would be wonderful. Yeah, and one more time, the title of the book. 

26:42 - Stephanie Lee Jackson (Host)
The Eccentric Genius Habitat. Intervention I love it. Interior Design for Highly Sensitive People. I love it. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you so much. 

26:53 - Mark (Host)
And thank you guys for watching, as always, we do appreciate it. We'll see you soon you're still here. 

27:02 - Stacey (Host)
You're still listening. Thanks for listening to the gurus and game changers podcast while you're here. If you enjoyed it, please take a minute to rate this episode and leave us a quick review. We want to know what you thought of the show and what you took from it and how it might have helped you. We read and appreciate every comment. Thanks, see you next week.