How Mentorships Change People for the Better | Ep 099

🗣️ Dr. Kim Nugent is a leadership development expert and author of "From Prison to Possibilities" who created a peer-to-peer mentorship program operating in prisons across multiple states. After receiving an unexpected call in 2018, she began training inmates to become certified mentors for other inmates, creating structured 6-month programs focused on behavioral change, employability skills, and release planning.

In this prison mentorship conversation, Stacey and Mark talk with Dr. Kim about why 68% of released inmates are rearrested within three years (recidivism statistics), how peer-led mentorship in prisons reduces recidivism up to 40%, and why men with life sentences often make the most committed prison mentors. She shares powerful transformation stories, including how facilities with her inmate mentorship program saw rule violations drop dramatically - from 300 per month on average to just 6 violations total over three years among program participants.

Dr. Kim explains the difference between mentors, coaches, and teachers in prison settings, why incarcerated individuals respond better to peer guidance than staff instruction, and how ownership of mentorship programs creates lasting behavioral change. She also discusses the ripple effects of prison reform through mentorship: correctional officers seeing inmates differently after graduations, families noticing behavioral changes in their incarcerated loved ones, and participants developing their own community bylaws and leadership structures within facilities.

CHAPTERS: 

0:00 - Prison Recidivism Statistics: The 68% Problem 
1:16 - How Dr. Kim Started Prison Mentorship Work 
2:24 - What Makes an Effective Mentor in Prison 
4:01 - Who Becomes a Prison Mentor 
6:09 - Why Life Sentence Inmates Make the Best Mentors 
7:23 - What Makes This Prison Program Different 10:19 - Can Outside Volunteers Be Prison Mentors? 
14:29 - The 6-Month Inmate Mentorship Program Structure 
15:39 - Training Inmates to Become Mentor Trainers 16:35 - Prison Violence Statistics: 98% Rule Violation Drop 
17:07 - Seeing Transformation in Incarcerated Individuals 
18:18 - When Correctional Officers' Perspectives Changed 
19:09 - Behavioral Change: People Do Better When They Know Better

Connect with Dr. Kim Nugent: Book: "From Prison to Possibilities: Paving Your Path Through Peer Mentorship" - Amazon Website: https://DrNugentSpeaks.com

Related Topics: prison mentorship programs, inmate mentors, recidivism reduction, prison reform, behavioral change in prisons, peer mentorship, prisoner rehabilitation, criminal justice reform, reentry programs, incarcerated mentorship, prison violence reduction, life sentence inmates, correctional officer training, second chances, inmate leadership development 

📲 Connect with Our Hosts: Stacey: https://www.instagram.com/staceymgrant/ Mark: https://www.instagram.com/mark_lubragge_onair/

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Transcript

Stacey (00:01): 

Mark, did you know that 68% of released inmates are rearrested within three years? 

Mark (00:08):
 It's a big number. No, I didn't know the number, but I knew it was a big number. 

Stacey (00:11): That's a big 

Mark (00:12):
 Number. Almost seven out of every 10. That's unfortunate. But 

Stacey (00:17):
 So they get out and then they just come right back in. 

Mark (00:20):
 And part of it's environmental, but part of it, according to today's guest, Dr. Kim, is that they're just not 

prepared 

Stacey (00:27): For 

Mark (00:27):
 What's waiting for them. They're not preparing themselves in prison to be successful out 

Stacey (00:31):
 Of prison. So she has this mentorship program that she now wants to get all over the nation, but now as 

things only in three states, and it's really, it's working. 

Mark (00:40):
 It's working and it's inmates, mentoring inmates, and apparently 

Stacey (00:44): Peer to peer, 

Mark (00:45): 

Super successful. And it's giving them the skills they need. It's giving them the hope they need, it's giving them the resources they need, everything so that when they do get on the other side of the wall, they don't come back. 

Stacey (00:56):
 She's written a book called From Prison to Possibility. 

Mark (00:59): 

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Stacey (01:00):
 So we're looking forward to good 

Mark (01:01): Conversation 

Stacey (01:02):
 Speaking with Dr. Kim. Hi, 

Mark (01:06):
 I'm Stacey. And I am Mark. And this is the gurus of Game Changers podcast. Hey, Dr. Kim, welcome to 

the show. 

Kim Nugent (01:16):
 Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. I know this is going to be a great conversation. 

Stacey (01:21):
 Your book from Prison of Possibilities, how did you get there and what made you write the book? 

Kim Nugent (01:28): 

So prior to writing that book, I actually are really known in the leadership development space in terms of mentorship. I know the impact a mentor can make. However, in I would say it was probably January of 2018, I received a call from a gentleman in Arizona who I did not know who had been doing volunteer work doing meditation work in Arizona prisons and was seeing some real impact that he was making. And he said, Kim, have you ever seen a book on mentorship in prisons? And I said, no. And he said, would I be willing to write it? And I said yes. And then I hung up the phone and said, what the heck did I just say yes to? But it felt right. 

Mark (02:10): 

So go back to what you were saying prior to the writing the book. So you are already steeped in mentorship from an organizational standpoint, so the benefits of it. What are some of just the fundamental benefits that translate as well to the prisoners? 

Kim Nugent (02:24): 

Well, first of all, we're talking about human beings. So anything that we're working on in terms of employability skills or soft skills is transferable a hundred percent. The setting is different, but one thing I don't know that maybe the audience ever thinks about, and it's becoming clear and clearer every day to me, which is yes, they're physically behind bars, but there's so many people who are not in prison that mentally are behind bars, that really there's an opportunity for everyone really in my world to have a mentor. 

Stacey (02:56):
 And what does it mean to be a mentor? 

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So different than a coach, different than a teacher. So when I think about a mentor, it's the ability to be able to ask questions half of the time. And then the other half of the time you're really sharing your own experiences so that hopefully that person won't make the same mistakes that you as the mentor have made in the past, that they can see something for themselves that maybe they currently don't see. 

Stacey (03:19): 

And does it have to be a peer or could it be anyone? I think a lot of times when I do mentorship, for instance, for the entrepreneurial school at University of Delaware or whatever, they're younger, but I think a lot of times peer to peer is good too. So what do you think? 

Kim Nugent (03:35): 

I think the world we live in today is so exciting because I think mentorship, the traditional model as you described, is really changing a lot. So we have that model. We also have peer to peer, but we also have generational mentorship. So for example, someone maybe a millennial or Gen Z who's coming into the workforce, they definitely have skills that maybe the more experienced people in the workplace don't have. And so there's an opportunity to mentor one another. 

Mark (04:01): 

So when that moves to a prison situation or prison scenario, do you find that the mentors typically are the older prisoners? We've had a number of people who are formerly incarcerated on the show, and I think all of them, if not maybe one or two haven't have said. The older guys just kind of took me under their wing and showed me the right way, not how to live in prison, but to get out and be ready. 

Kim Nugent (04:26): 

Yes. And so let me say what I mean by that. So definitely the majority of the mentors tend to be older people who really want to help people navigate, I would even say living inside the prison in terms of expectations and things like that. And so that's true. On the other hand, what I'm starting to see more and more of these days is occasionally, and maybe I'll say 20% of the group that I'm working with tend to be late twenties. And if they have an eagerness or something, they saw something for themselves that they said, you know what? I don't want to continue to live the life that I live. I want to do something else. However, I will say that, and I don't know if this statistic is true or not, but I think it's fascinating. And I was listening to a mental health expert and she said that the male brain matures at 35. And what I think is really wonderful about knowing that is the fact that basically you see people, my experience so far in the prisons is gentlemen under, I mean over the age of 35 are typically the ones that sign up first because they realize that the cycle that they've been living is not really helpful and they want to see a change for themselves because they don't want to continue to come back to prison. So I think for all of us, we mature when we mature. 

(05:52):
 And like I said, if you're coachable or you're ready, you're going to be a great candidate for the program. 

Mark (05:58):
 Yeah. Is there a correlation between how long they've been in and how quickly they sign up? 

Kim Nugent (06:09):
 I don't know that there's a correlation, but I want to make a distinction and that distinction is this. So what 

you said in the very beginning is accurate. So ideally I would work with residents inside of prison who 

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maybe have six months to two years before they leave. That would be the ideal. That is really not reality. And it depends on the state, it depends on the city, it depends on the prison and all of those things. But many of the men that I work with have life sentences. And I think that's really important to distinguish because you might find that surprising. Well, one reason I don't find it surprising is because it gives them, if they can mentor someone or they can coach someone, they have a purpose. A purpose to get out of bed in the morning and they want to continue to give back and give back and give back so they can make a difference there. 

Stacey (07:01): Ooh, I love that. 

Mark (07:02): That makes sense. 

Stacey (07:02): 

That's so cool. So I mean, is mentalism in prisons a new thing? Has that been happening? Because we've spoken to a few prisoners who actually have had that I think naturally has happened. I don't know whether or not it's always been good, but that there has been mentors in prison. But is this type of program something new? And why now? 

Kim Nugent (07:23): 

So let's take your point. I definitely think organically mentors have shown up in prisons and they've helped guide. We don't know what that outcome really looks like necessarily. However, I think there's two things about this program that are quite maybe three things that are quite unique. One is when I go into a prison, I am training the residents face-to-face for two full days to learn how to be a mentor. So they have the confidence and the ability to be able to listen carefully, to take notes, to really not get triggered by someone's background or experience or the way they think because that takes some practice. And then from there we go. I think the other thing is because it's very structured, most mentorship programs do happen organically at universities. Any organization probably has some kind of mentorship, but most of those people are not trained and they don't have a curriculum. 

(08:20): 

This is a curriculum that they can bring their own experiences in, but it's very structured so that we get the outcomes that we really want. So we're working on employability skills, but we're also working on developing a robust plan for release should that happen. There are a lot of great reentry programs across the United States, but there's singular in nature. So you and I could develop a great plan if I were in prison, and that sounds good on paper, but the reality is if I haven't changed my behavior before I even think about that plan, I'm going to show up the same way when I leave the prison and I'm going to come right back. And our goal is for them not to come back. So how the model works, because I really want people to gain real skills and behaviors. So the first time I go into a prison, obviously I'm working with people who have been selected by the warden or the assistant warden to become those mentors. 

(09:16): 

I don't know them over the course of the time that we're together. Then they go out and then they can be assigned mentees one of two ways. One way is they can go recruit their friends or whoever they want, maybe in the same dorm or cell block. That's one way. Or they could be assigned by the prison warden or assistant warden. It sort of depends on that particular facility. However, once the program's up and running, word spreads really fast and I want to get in that program, what is that? They see a book or they talk to somebody and they find it fascinating. And one of the things that's so important, whether it's my 

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program or anybody else's program in a facility, is the more programming available to men and women in prison today, the better it is. Idle time is a problem for the staff as well as for certainly the residents or are in the facility. 

Mark (10:09):
 Can only fellow inmates be mentors or can staff or guards or how does that work? 

Kim Nugent (10:19): 

Well, in my perfect world, in my perfect world, it would go like this. So I really like mentorship. The research actually says it can reduce recidivism up to 40% when it's a peer led because there's some credibility and that relationship between staff and someone who's incarcerated is very different. What I think the ideal scenario would be because I have a different program and it's called Advancing Careers and Corrections, and I think the warden all the way down to the correctional officer can go through a similar, different but similar mentorship program so that they can see corrections as a viable career for the rest of their lives rather than, Hey, I'm going to try this and see how it works out. Because they can actually build their career from correctional officer all the way up to the top and one day hopefully become a warden. But if they're changing themselves, we all know by professional development, once we learn new things, we are starting to change. And once they start to change, they can start to see that environment differently, but they can also communicate with the residents in a completely different way, respectful way as opposed to strict security protocols. 

Stacey (11:36): 

This episode is brought to you by Mainline Studios where great content feels right at home. Located in beautiful Wayne Pennsylvania, our creative rental space offers high-end tech in a space that feels like your best friend's living room. Book your session or free tour@mainlinevideostudio.com and back to the show. So when you first started this program, had you been in a prison before, what was it like when you taught? Did you have any scary experiences or did you just sail in and smooth sailing? 

Kim Nugent (12:08):
 It doesn't really kind of work that way. 

Stacey (12:10): Right, 

Kim Nugent (12:13): 

For this part, when I was 18, I actually was a bail bonds person at night from 11 at night till seven in the morning, and I saw that piece of it. My brother was a police officer, my dad was a criminal attorney. It was a very exciting family conversations to have all the time, but then I kind of got away from it. I went into a completely different career, but when I had the opportunity, I was fascinated. I'm always fascinated by education or learning new things. And I went to visit Goodwill in Austin. I was on the board of Goodwill Central Texas and got invited to that particular high school. But through that found out that also they had high schools now in Texas, in prisons, and so I asked if I could go and so I went and I visited, and then I went back to teach career development opportunities for the women in that particular prison. And that was sort of the beginning of this journey, if you will. 

Mark (13:10): 

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Do you think there's room for the public to be mentors like Stacy or me joining a program mentoring 

inside of a prison? 

Stacey (13:18): We're not peers. 

Mark (13:19):
 No, I understand. I'm saying is there room for extending it beyond the peers? 

Kim Nugent (13:25): 

I see the opportunity is when somebody really, if we had external mentors would be ideal. I try to take away as many barriers to having any kind of program at all. I think through that very carefully. So when I just think about kind of the security through the state that you have to go through the security clearance, the training and development to go in every single time. I mean, it's a lot. What if instead we looked at mentorship on the outside as true mentors on the outside. So how can I navigate? I don't know where the resources are in my city or my town or I don't know. 

Mark (14:00): There 

Kim Nugent (14:00): 

Are many things that you know because you work all of the time, so you may be aware of resources that this person who has been incarcerated for a number of years not even know, and you could be kind of the liaison, if you will. That would be the most helpful way for somebody on the outside to do that. 

Stacey (14:17):
 That's great. I love that idea. That's 

Mark (14:19): Support after they 

Stacey (14:20):
 Get out. So this program starts six months before the prisoners are released, so why not extend it to the 

entire time they're in prison? 

Kim Nugent (14:29):
 The program itself is six months and that's assuming a lot. That means no lockdowns. (14:34): 

There are always lockdowns. So let's say six to nine months, first thing. But the mentors, when they complete the program, we have a formal graduation with mentors and mentees. So I'm always looking for how can I continue to develop people. And so what I do is immediately after graduation, I take all of the mentors and then I train them on accelerated coaching skills. I'm not going to be a coach, but I'm going to take everything that they've learned over the last six to nine months and how can we continue to build upon that skillset. Then I'm going to take the mentees and I'm going to train them to be mentors so the coaches can be more of support to the administration, not have to deal with the details of that, and then they've already been through it. So going through a program a second time makes you even stronger and 

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they can help the mentors who've never done this before even be stronger. Then what happens is the third time I go back typically to a facility, and I'm training that third group, I have generally identified at least one person who for some reason has found this to be their calling. 

Stacey (15:37): Oh, I love it. 

Kim Nugent (15:39):
 And from that, I train them to be me. 

Stacey (15:41): Oh my gosh. 

Kim Nugent (15:42): 

And so then they can start the program at any point depending on how many people, they're on that waiting list and they don't have to wait on me, but then they truly own it. And when they own the program, real transformation happens. As you can imagine, prisons are very many, prisons are very, very violent. They have all kinds of situations that happen on a daily basis. And so one of the things that a byproduct of this program is really safety, if you will, because we're holding our mentors and mentees to a higher standard. A warden taught me this. He said, Kim, let's track rule violations. I said, okay. We started tracking that. What happened is one prison gets, probably has 300 rule violations a month. The other one has a hundred rule violations a month, and so all the men who have gone through the program over the last three years, we've had a total of six. 

Stacey (16:35):
 Whoa. Wow. That's fantastic. 

Kim Nugent (16:39): 

That's why they took ownership. It's not me, it's them. They took ownership and said, you know what? We are going to hold ourselves to a higher standard and we're not going to do things that maybe in the past would've gotten them in trouble. 

Mark (16:50):
 That sounds like probably the most important 

Stacey (16:53): Factor, 

Mark (16:54):
 Right? Ownership. That's it. 

Kim Nugent (16:56): It is. 

Stacey (16:56): 

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And so do you see a transformation in these people? It must be so awesome for you to come in there and 

see somebody who maybe didn't have a purpose. 

Kim Nugent (17:07): 

Absolutely. They're so creative. They have leadership skills, you can't believe. So they've developed their own community. They have developed their own bylaws. They have developed their own identification, meaning they have badges that says, I am a mentor or I'm a coach. They take great pride in what they're doing and they want to be held to that higher standard because I want to tell you though, obviously it's not the things that we say, right? It's their behavior every day. For the guards, the very first graduation I ever attended, we didn't do any publicity at all about, we didn't do any publicity. We didn't tell the staff for anything else, but then they did get invited to the graduation, so they're in the back of the room and then they only know one aspect of it. So now they're seeing these mentors and mentees who are standing up in front of a podium and talking about the impact that this program has made in their life or how it's changed something in their family or whatever it happens to be. And the staff, if you could just see their faces, it's so amazing because they're like, I can remember when he fill in the blank. Not necessarily positive, 

Mark (18:18): But 

Kim Nugent (18:18): 

Then they're saying they see them so differently. And to me, that's the exciting part, and you may find this surprising. I did the first time I heard about it a few years ago, but churches, if churches could be open to anyone to coming into their church and becoming a member, that would be huge. Having a support group or people who had a record to maybe many churches have like, oh, if you've lost your job, for example, in you're a little bit older in your career, and they might have resume writing workshops or interviewing, they could do a support group just like that. For someone who has a record, how to navigate resources, I mean, churches should be the first place to go, and many churches don't allow someone with a record. 

Stacey (18:59):
 We can't solve everybody's problem, but we 

Mark (19:03): Can try. 

Stacey (19:03):
 That's sad. Well, what else do you want to tell our audience about your program or what would you like 

to get out in the world? 

Kim Nugent (19:09): 

People do better when they know better, and I see it day after day after day. When I go back and I'm talking to the guys, whether it's the next training group or whatever, or it's during graduation because we always have a formal lunch afterwards and really to talk to them, and if they get to have their families, they're talking about the changes. Their loved ones see the changes. The kids get to see the change in Dad. 

Mark (19:33):
 How do people get ahold of you Best way? 

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The best way, honestly, is my website, which is a doctor. It's Dr Nugent, N-U-G-E-N-T speaks.com. 

Mark (19:45):
 And where can they get the book? 

Kim Nugent (19:47): Amazon. 

Mark (19:47):
 Amazon. You have it right there. 

Stacey (19:50):
 And it's bestselling, right? It's a bestselling book on Amazon. My notes say, 

Kim Nugent (19:53):
 Yes, it is a bestselling book. That's fantastic 

Stacey (19:55): Book right here. 

Kim Nugent (19:56): Yeah, 

Stacey (19:56):
 Yeah. Let's see it. Bring it up. There she is. 

Mark (19:59):
 From Prison to Possibilities 

Stacey (20:01):
 Paving Your Path. This is amazing what you're doing really well. 

Kim Nugent (20:06):
 Thank you. Yeah, it is definitely the most rewarding work I have ever done. I have had some amazing 

opportunities in my life in terms of my career, but this is the best ever. 

Stacey (20:16):
 You're changing people for the positive, and you're giving people hope and purpose and it's wonderful. 

Mark (20:22):
 Yeah, making a huge difference. 

Stacey (20:23): 

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Mark (20:24):
 Thank you. Thanks for sharing all that with us. 

Stacey (20:26):
 Thank you. Thank you. Thank you 

Mark (20:28):
 For asking. Really appreciate it. 

Stacey (20:29): I appreciate it. 

Mark (20:30):
 Well, you have a wonderful day, guys. Thank you for watching, and we'll see all of you guys. Be 

welcome. 

Stacey (20:40): 

You're still here. You're still listening. Thanks for listening to the Gurus and Game Changers podcast. While you're here, if you enjoyed it, please take a minute to rate this episode and leave us a quick review. We want to know what you thought of the show and what you took from it and how it might've helped you. We read and appreciate every comment. Thanks. See you next week.