The Dangers of Porn | Ep 033

➡️ About the Guest: JK Emezi
Listen in as we tackle the often-taboo subject of pornography addiction with our insightful guest JK Emezi, who bravely shares his own harrowing journey from an early exposure at age eight to a full-blown struggle with addiction into his adult years. We peel back the layers of secrecy and shame that surround this issue, aiming to foster a deeper understanding of the psychological effects and the profound impact it can have on personal relationships and family dynamics. JK's candid storytelling provides a stark view into the reality of this widespread addiction and the path to recovery, as well as how his experiences led to the creation of ElevatedRecovery.org, where he now guides others to reclaim their lives and mend bonds broken by addiction.

As we delve into the intricacies of sexual relationships, the episode doesn't shy away from discussing monogamy, attraction, and the betrayal trauma felt by partners of those addicted. We underscore the importance of open communication in relationships and how acknowledging attraction can paradoxically strengthen the bonds of fidelity. Touching on the distinctions between male and female experiences with pornography, we conclude with a sobering look at the intersection of technology and exploitation, highlighting the need for vigilance in a world where content is more accessible than ever. Join us for a thought-provoking session that not only seeks to educate but also to empower listeners in facing these modern-day challenges.

➡️ Chapters
(00:02) - The Impact of Porn Addiction
(14:09) - Impact of Pornography on Addiction
(18:29) - Understanding Pornography Addiction and Recovery
(31:17) - Navigating Monogamy and Porn Addiction
(38:09) - Women and Pornography
(50:59) - Impact of Pornography and OnlyFans

➡️ Highlights
(00:39 - 01:55) Understanding Pornography Addiction and Impact (77 Seconds)
(04:18 - 05:19) Impact of Early Exposure to Pornography (61 Seconds)
(08:51 - 09:55) Reckless Behavior Leading to Danger (64 Seconds)
(14:04 - 15:42) Navigating Porn Addiction Recovery Process (98 Seconds)
(17:52 - 19:25) Impact of Internet Pornography on Children (93 Seconds)
(21:20 - 22:08) Impact of Pornography on Relationships (48 Seconds)
(25:21 - 26:32) Understanding Pornography Addiction and Awareness (71 Seconds)
(32:02 - 33:30) Monogamy and Betrayal Trauma (88 Seconds)
(44:33 - 46:55) Parental Guidance on Pornography Exposure (143 Seconds)

➡️ More about the guest: 
Website: www.elevatedrecovery.org 
Twitter: https://twitter.com/RebootPorn
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/j-k-emezi-736457127/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@pornreboot (3.7k followers)
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jkemezi1 (10k followers)
YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/@ElevatedRecovery (38.6k followers)

Connect with our Hosts:
Stacey: https://www.instagram.com/staceymgrant/
Mark: https://www.instagram.com/mark_lubragge_onair/

➡️ Like the podcast? Subscribe, Follow, Rate: https://www.youtube.com/@GurusAndGameChangers
💻 Website: https://mainlinevideostudio.com/gurus-and-game-changers

➡️  𝗔𝗯𝗼𝘂𝘁 The Gurus And Game Changers Podcast
*THE OPINIONS OF OUR GUESTS ARE NOT OURS* The Gurus & Game Changers Video Podcast  follows the paths of influential leaders from humble beginnings and/or seemingly insurmountable obstacles to where they are now.

💌 𝗟𝗘𝗧'𝗦 𝗦𝗧𝗔𝗬 𝗜𝗡 𝗧𝗢𝗨𝗖𝗛 💌
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gurus_and_gamechangers/
Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7HIA2sSNKIflt5KU8zfz9g?si=3f6e5ca2495e490a
Listen on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-gurus-game-changers-podcast/id1705702934

⭐️ SUBSCRIBE TO The Gurus And Game Changers Podcast ⭐️
The Gurus And Game Changers Podcast  OTHER VIDEOS:
➟Ep. 002 Emme | F

Transcript

00:02 - Stacey (Host)
so, mark, yeah, we talked a lot about porn today we did was it? Were you nervous before we started this conversation? 

00:09 - Mark (Host)
that's gonna get weird no, because you and I've talked about porn a lot. We have not talked about porn a lot. We've never talked about porn till today I looked forward to today's episode for months yeah because I find this topic fascinating. This man was addicted to pornography yes, something no one ever talks about, but I guarantee you you know somebody who's addicted to pornography. According to the statistics, we all know somebody. 

00:34
We all do yeah, and it's an inside look at what does that mean? He was addicted at the age. Well, he started looking at pornography at the age of eight and it for many, many, many years. He was addicted to it and it completely impacted his life. What does that? Look like what is that story? He told it. He told it very openly. 

00:52 - Stacey (Host)
But it's not a situation where you're like it's a constant talk about porn and what we're talking about is really the enlightenment around what makes someone addicted to pornography and any kind of sex stuff and how maybe you can help your kid not go down that path by being just like Mark Labraji, who is very open with his kids. 

01:15 - Mark (Host)
Very. 

01:16 - Stacey (Host)
And how should women approach this? Because this is a very man-centric thing. It's mostly men. 

01:23 - Mark (Host)
Mostly, men yeah. 

01:24 - Stacey (Host)
Statistically, who are addicted to porn. But I know I've spoken to women, friends of mine, who find their husbands watching porn, or boyfriends or partners Right, and they're jealous of this pornography. They don't understand the brain function, the things that happen to men when they watch pornography. So I found this episode extremely fascinating and I think everyone will. 

01:51 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, this is a good one. You're going to enjoy it. We're going to stop there because the episode is fascinating. Want to get right to it. This is JK Amizi. 

02:00 - Stacey (Host)
Hi, I'm Stacey. 

02:01 - Mark (Host)
And I am Mark, and this is the Gurus at Game Changers podcast. Hi, I'm Stacey and I am Mark, and this is the Gurus of Game Changers podcast. Welcome everybody to Gurus of Game Changers. I have a question for you how old were you the first time you saw pornography? Was it a magazine hidden in your house? Was it a thumbnail on the early internet? 

02:19
Well, today's guest, jk Amizi, was only eight years old when he found a pornographic magazine hidden by his nanny and while his young mind couldn't fully process what he was seeing, he knew he liked it and he knew he wanted more and that desire. 

02:33
By the time he hit puberty it had a hold of him and he would routinely turn to pornography to deal with all of the trials of a typical teen life. 

02:41
By college, he was maxing out his credit card, he wasn't paying the rent and instead of a normal dating life he had a full-blown addiction, and an addiction that sometimes had him watching some pornography that didn't even align with his values. Does any of that sound familiar? Because, according to some statistics, there are 400 to 600 million people worldwide that are suffering from the same addiction, the same shame, the same secrecy that you're dealing with, that JK was dealing with as well, and that's not even the darkest side of all of this. So today he's fully recovered. Today he has his own organization called elevatedrecoveryorg, where he helps other people rebuild their lives, break their addiction and, probably most importantly, reconnect with their spouses and their families. This is the big problem that nobody seems to want to ever talk about, but today we are going to do just that with JK Amizi. Welcome to the show, buddy. I'm so glad we were able to make this happen. 

03:41 - JK Emezi (Guest)
I am so honored to be on. Thank you for having me, yeah it's great. 

03:44 - Mark (Host)
We started talking in September and it was a whole lot of scheduling and trying to figure it out, so we are thrilled to finally have you in studio. 

03:51 - JK Emezi (Guest)
Yeah, I'm excited to be here. I was doing the math. I was like, how long ago was it it? 

03:54 - Mark (Host)
was a while. 

03:56 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah, well, welcome. I mean, this is definitely a story that needs to be told right now, I feel like, and always, and I appreciate you for being here. And also, congrats, porn free and rebooted for what? 16, 17 years, now 16. 16 years, I mean that's fantastic. So what I mean, just for our listeners, like how did it start and how did it stop? 

04:18 - JK Emezi (Guest)
All right, Well, as Mark began in his awesome summary. 

04:24
I was just shocked at how much you covered on my life story. I was exposed to pornography at the age of eight. I grew up in the 90s. I was a latchkey kid with my siblings, so no one was allowed at home. The key was under the flower pot in front of the house and we had a nanny who was also like a family member, who would come over on certain days and look out for us. But long story short, one day she she came over with a comic book and I and my sisters we were voracious readers. I'd read everything in the house and I was determined to read that particular comic book, but she would not let me do it. Eventually a little bit of tenacity I found out where it was and it turned out to be pornographic in nature. 

05:11
Now, the interesting thing about pornography is that it doesn't matter your mental state, your age, what language you speak. There's something very primal about seeing sex, about visualizing sex. It's something that anybody can translate, and the problem with that is we live in, most of us come from cultures where we're not taught how to process what we are translating or what we're seeing. In my case, I was scared because at eight years old, even though I didn't know exactly what sex was. I just had this idea that this is what mom and dad say. I grew up in a Catholic home, so when a sex scene came up on TV, or even kissing my family got immediately uncomfortable. 

05:58
I don't know if you all experienced that my dad is just like he starts talking to mom, they're like, hey, look away, it's the bad part. So I away, it's the bad part. So I knew this was the bad part, but it was exaggerated and I don't want to say anything to trigger anyone on the podcast. But let's just say something happened to me. What happened to me was that I I got really attached to it. In retrospect, what happened was that, um, there was a release of neurochemicals, like there was a shock, there was adrenaline and I got addicted to that, which simply means that my state was changed. 

06:34
And any time moved from that point onwards that I felt a strong emotion, like, let's say, mom didn't give me candy, or I felt rejected or I didn't get what I want, I knew I could rely on nudity to change my state. I don't know how it happened, it just happened that way. And from then onwards, I just started seeking out nudity for the rush. Obviously, at 8, 9, 10, I wasn't capable of arousal, so I just continued doing it till I hit puberty at about 13 years old, and at that point, once I discovered the wonderful world of orgasm, I was off to the races. So that's how it began. That was the genesis of this issue. 

07:18 - Stacey (Host)
How did you say to yourself okay, this is it. 

07:20 - JK Emezi (Guest)
I was about 17, 18 years old when I began to suspect that it was a problem, and that was when I started noticing that a lot of my friends were out dating. A lot of them were able to talk to girls and I was at home masturbating six, seven times a day. I was masturbating to images, to girls from my classroom and most people might think that it's normal, but I felt something was wrong because I wasn't balancing it out in my real life. I actually wasn't interacting with many people. By the time I got to college I knew definitively it was a problem. At this point I would try to meet women. I would drink, go out into evenings, go to bars and clubs this was what early 2000s. You would go and try to grind. That was how dance back and I don't know what happens these days. But I would come back home frustrated because I quote unquote didn't get any and I would end up viewing pornography and masturbating. Eventually it escalated into going to chat sites, video chat sites, maxing out my credit card, and I didn't know that I was seeking intimacy. I didn't know that pornography had replaced many of my basic coping strategies and the worst part of all of this was that I really thought I was alone so I couldn't speak to anyone. It's such a shameful thing. It all came to a head when, at about the age of 22, I started acting out, which means that I would view pornography, I would drink, I would get on a site like Craigslist and I would start seeking some form of anonymous sex and I would start to try to find these encounters. On a handful of occasions, bad things almost happened, with one specifically being and I will share this story because it's surprising I've done about 70 interviews right now. I've done about 70 interviews right now the number of people who say that so many people can relate to it and they just never had the opportunity to talk about it. 

09:31
I had some drinks, viewed some pornography which is just part of the process and got on one of these sites and a quote-unquote like 19, 20-year-old girl sent me a message and said that she was babysitting that evening and she would love to have sex and she sent me a picture. So excited and tipsy, I jumped into my vehicle it was a Nissan Xterra and I drove off to find this person and she said park behind my home, which was some suburb, but it was a little bit of a rundown, long story short. She kept texting me and I remember this so vividly because it was on my BlackBerry. You know the old with all the buttons. And she's like, just, you know, just turn your engine off and come out, I'll turn the light on and you'll know where it is. 

10:18
And I was freaking out because, despite everything, I was still raised Catholic. Despite everything, I was still raised Catholic. So I was still very paranoid. I was still like what am I doing? I left my car on drive, not on park, and while I was sitting there, someone smashed the driver's side window off my car. I don't know who it was, I just heard voices of men. They just rushed up to the car. I felt the glass on my face and I freaked out. My reaction was to just hit the accelerator. 

10:49
I remember driving through the backyard of this house, through all the kids' toys, the little plastic blow-up pool, the trampoline, off to the other side of the road and guys, I remember driving home, shaking, just shaking, squeezing the steering wheels, just saying, jk, you weren't raised like this, you weren't raised like this. You weren't raised like this. All the way home. I went home and I sat down and I realized that day that I had a problem. Everything went back to pornography. I was shocked and deeply ashamed. I just did not understand how something like pornography could get me to be this sort of person, and it just didn't fit with my self-image. That's when I started professionally seeking help for my behavior. 

11:38 - Mark (Host)
So the next day you woke up, you said it's time. 

11:42 - JK Emezi (Guest)
That evening. That evening I deleted everything on my device and started seeking help. 

11:47 - Stacey (Host)
I started searching online do you think that they she trapped you so that they could steal from you? Is that what happened? 

11:53 - JK Emezi (Guest)
it. It could have been anything yeah, yeah these days. 

11:56
we're we've we've worked with thousands of clients and we hear everything from um, the fbi. Um does stings now and kicks in people's doors. They're just people who sit around setting people up. Others try to meet up with escorts who are not really escorts. They're people who are professionally steal information. They show up, pretend to be someone that's on a video chat with you and get you to expose yourself, and then they blackmail you with that, with you and get you to expose yourself, and then they blackmail you with that. And we get emails on this weekly. So this is common. 

12:31 - Stacey (Host)
It's just that the no one talks about it. Yeah, no one talks about it no one talks about this. 

12:35
This is why I love the fact that we're talking about this today. I'm so excited, yeah, and I think too like did you feel like there was anyone that you could talk to? Were you all by yourself in this battle? Did you have a mentor, anyone that you could have? I know it's a shameful thing and no one talks about it, but it happens to so many people. Did you get someone's help during this process? A mentor, a chat room, anything? 

12:57 - JK Emezi (Guest)
I sought out help. There were chat rooms, but back then Stacey being viewed as a sex addict or a porn addict was almost a good thing. He was like I'm a sex addict. Isn't that a good thing, man, to be addicted to sex or a porn addict? People thought it was funny. Wow, and quite honestly, it's only in the last, I would say, six, seven years that there's a conversation about it. In fact, a couple of years ago no one wanted anyone talking about this on their podcast because rightfully so. People were concerned that it would alienate the audience. Oh, this is my audience would think this was really weird. Even now some people might be a little bit concerned, but now it's a little bit more mainstream. 

13:43
But back then I did seek help. There were religious resources. There were 12-step groups that I went to and all of them did help. They were also mentors, they were coaches. They were more like relationship coaches who would guide me through it. But there really wasn't any system. The only system back then was the 12-step system, which was borrowed from Alcoholics Anonymous. Now, there's nothing wrong with it when they try to apply it to sex addiction. 

14:09
However, alcohol is a substance abuse problem, while pornography is a behavioral or a process addiction. So it works a little bit differently. With pornography, the drug is actually endogenousogenous, which means that you are releasing the dopamine and the adrenaline. You only need to be stimulated externally, but you're addicted to something that is within you. So the process of ending that addiction is a little bit different and I didn't know this back then. So when I sought help first of all, it didn't know this back then. So when I sought help first of all, it didn't work. Secondly, there was just so much shame and the approach to it didn't work. I would share and I would talk about a relapse. But most people in the group would not talk about their relapses Because, think about it, it's a deeply personal thing sexist, our sexual behavior, and for most men, culturally, it's a huge thing to trust another man and tell him I have a problem controlling my sexual behavior. This isn't liquor, this isn't something that you can remove from your home, this is your sexual behavior, it's a drive that you have. So for that and many other reasons, it didn't really work. It took me many years of trial and error and kind of like putting together a little bit of a Frankenstein of a system to find something that actually worked for me, and when it did work, I went on with my life. My life was great till years later. 

15:45
I came across a forum online where, just by chance, where people were talking about their problems with pornography the crazy thing was there were hundreds of thousands of guys in this forum and I was reading through it and I was shocked at how basic the help they were. They were talking about willpower, and Stacey, earlier on, used the word battle. They were talking about willpower, and Stacy, earlier on, used the word battle. They were using the word battle and I just realized that they were not going to get help, and that was when I realized that I was like, hey, I've got a decent life, I was running a large sales organization, my life was good, and that was when I decided that I could apply some of the skills I had and the experience I had overcoming this to help these men. And that was when I decided that I could apply some of the skills I had and the experience I had overcoming this to help these men, and it was the best decision I made in my life up to that point, that is awesome. 

16:35 - Mark (Host)
Let me take you back a little bit real quick. I'm going to actually ask you a two-part question, back to eight years old. So I saw some stats I want to share with you. I kind of want to get your vibe on the stats. One was that the average age now for exposure first time exposure is about eight years old now and it was I don't know, it was 11, maybe five, seven years ago, maybe more. How do you feel about that? And then is there, you know, is there a level of healthy exposure to it? It is part. Is it part educational? Because I know I think it's half of all boys say it's educational. There's something educational about it. So what are your thoughts on the fact that the age that you started is kind of the age that everybody is sort of getting exposed to their first time? That you started is kind of the age that everybody is sort of getting exposed to their first time, and is there value in it, regardless of the independent, of the eight-year-old age? 

17:31 - JK Emezi (Guest)
Okay, that's a great question. I don't believe that the average age is eight years old, and I don't believe that because I see parents right now giving their five and six year old sometimes even younger, those iPads with the rubber thing around it. 

17:52
I can bounce it around and it's connected to the internet, right, which means that it's only a matter of time before they're exposed to pornography. I grew up and there was no internet. There was no internet that, like I, didn't have access to it in the 90s it was. We weren't one of those homes that had a computer. Like you were considered to be like wealthy if you, back in those days, if you had a home computer in your bedroom, like that was crazy, right, maybe one home computer. So I think kids are getting exposed to it a lot earlier and they're also getting exposed to a different sort of pornography. 

18:29
In the early days it was what you could describe as vanilla pornography. It came with a theme. It came with the cheesy music right, the pizza guy and the plumber, and the music of lovemaking. Unfortunately, that's not what pornography is now. Now it's short clips because of our shortened attention span and it goes straight to the most stimulating thing. The interesting thing is that when we view pornography, it is simultaneously using the parts of our brain that process sex but also process violence, simply because it's a very primal act. So pornography is skipping all the intimacy, it's skipping the storyline and it's going straight to getting the most bang for our biochemical buck, which is how soon can this get us to orgasm when we work with our clients? 

19:25
To answer your question, mark, one of the first things I do is I don't want to demonize pornography, because I'm a realist. I understand that pornography is not going anywhere. From the earliest days, as soon as we could, we were drawing phallic symbols on cave, and we're still doing it in public bathrooms. Right, we'll draw it wherever we can. When I work with my clients, one of the first things that I do is I don't want them to demonize pornography. So I have them write a thank you and a goodbye letter to pornography. And the thank you letter they're required to identify the positive things pornography did for them. And you're right, mark. 

20:05
One of the things they do say is that pornography was educational. Pornography without the biology, books were not enough. Without pornography, I would not have known where to put my penis, for instance. Pornography helped me when I was young, but I had a high sex drive and all the hormones, but I wasn't of legal age to have sex, so it was something that relieved me when I had those strong sexual urges. Maybe it was a decent coping strategy at some points during my adult life, but then we moved to the goodbye. But for those who struggle with it compulsively, it has outstayed its welcome. I now have a spouse and it's getting in the way of our sexual intimacy right. I'm now using it as my coping strategy for stress, for strong emotions, for when I feel lonely. Pornography is what I'm seeking. So I don't believe that pornography is. It's educational. 

21:09 - Stacey (Host)
It's not right now there's not much, because that's not real world, right, it's not real world. 

21:15 - JK Emezi (Guest)
It isn't the real world. 

21:17 - Stacey (Host)
Right? I mean, is it? It's funny? 

21:20 - Mark (Host)
I saw another stat that said more than half of boys. It just said boys, so I don't know what age range they were talking about. Believe that pornography is realistic? 

21:29 - JK Emezi (Guest)
That's a problem. It's absolutely a problem. When we, when I, work with clients and we've even just having conversations with female friends over the years, it's very interesting the way when, when they talk about sex, they talk about their partner. Most women today talk about their, their, their new partners, just trying to contort them and do things, and they're just like what are you doing? What are you trying to do? 

21:56 - Mark (Host)
And I tell the female partners. 

21:58 - JK Emezi (Guest)
When your new man is doing that and most women already know this he is simply trying to replicate what he viewed in pornography, and that's not normal. There's something called the arousal template, and our arousal template develops naturally just over time. It's made up of experiences you had in childhood the first, maybe the first thing you saw on TV. Maybe you saw Madonna on TV for the first time. All these things over time contribute to your arousal templates and have a say in what turns you on, so to speak. But pornography throws that off completely. So you have people who are, who think that they are attracted and aroused to certain things, but they are not realistic and unfortunately it becomes very challenging for them to find partners who are interested in those things. So in my case, for, for instance, the clients will ask well, what of you, jk? What's a crazy thing? And this isn't crazy. 

22:56
But I used to think that I was really into things like blowjobs because I was just like oh man, it seems all my friends talked about it. I saw it in pornography. I thought I liked it. The first time I experienced it I just thought it was super weird, but I still kept doing it because that's what you saw in porn. It's like, oh, it's supposed to be good and at a certain point, as I started rebooting, I just realized that for some reason it just wasn't my thing. I just didn't like it. If a partner of mine liked it, then wonderful if she enjoyed it, but it wasn't my thing. That was an example, and many men have found as they go through the rebooting process that some of the things that they thought were their thing really aren't once pornography is removed from the picture. 

23:43 - Stacey (Host)
Interesting Going back to, like you helping people, which I think is fantastic, that you looked at this forum and you're like I really wanna help these people. There's hundreds of thousands of men I do wanna ask about women later but hundreds of thousands of men in this forum who, like, even with a beautiful family, a great career circle of good friends, admiring associates, it's almost their dirty little secret that they go home and they're addicted to porn, and I'm sure it's their almost their dirty little secret that they are. They go home and they're addicted to porn and I don't. I'm sure it's more, much more prevalent than we know of. And you've said that the wiring in the brain makes this habit so hard to break and that's how the elevated recovery tools work. Do you want to go into that like I'd love to hear about your tools absolutely so. 

24:31 - JK Emezi (Guest)
The first thing is talking about the main things that men use to medicate. Men are medicating with pornography. You can use the word medicaid and esthetize, and those are things like loneliness or a lack of intimacy. You can be in a relationship and you can still be lonely and lack intimacy. There's stress, there's strong emotions and there are unresolved issues in their life. An unresolved issue could be a relationship where, um, sex life has changed, or one person has outgrown the other person, or both might not, or one of both might not, be sexually attracted to the other, but because you have kids and there's, you know, the whole sunk cost fallacy has taken place in the relationship. It's an unresolved issue and that could be something that a client medicates with pornography. We have a long list and we actually go through that every time a client puts in an application, because for us, the priority in the early stages is making sure that you are actually addicted to pornography. 

25:32
There are a lot of people who reach out, who think they're addicted to pornography because they like sex and they like pornography, but they're not addicted to pornography and we let them know. We're like dude, you don't have an addiction, you just grew up conservative and religious and you're experiencing a lot of shame, you're good. This isn't interfering with your life. If it's causing you distress, it doesn't take too many calls for us to work with you and get you to a place where you're at peace with that. But if it's interrupting your life and multiple areas of your life, then yeah, we will address it. Your life and multiple areas of your life then yeah, we will address it. But when it comes to the neurochemistry of pornography, what happens is that a lot of people start using pornography to feel better about a situation. We have a lot of tools and the tools are designed all of the tools are designed to increase your awareness. That's the one thing that a lot of men are missing. 

26:32
When it comes to the out-of-control behavior, you often hear men saying that I don't want to engage in this behavior, but the urge is so overwhelming that I always give in JK. How am I supposed to overcome an urge like my sexual urge? I don't want to masturbate because I know I'm going to end up. Even if I masturbate today, I know that the next time pornography is going to be a part of it. What other programs typically do is that they focus on using willpower to prevent you from Experiencing the urge. The problem with that is willpower is finite. That's the first issue, and the second thing is denying the urge only leads to some form of sexual repression, which means that you see all these men who might be Christian conservative and I'm using that because that usually is the case they're repressing it, but when they're walking around in the mall or outside with their wife, their head's on a swivel, and that's a direct result of repression. Repressing your sexual urge also leads to different forms of sexual dysfunction, performance anxiety and erectile dysfunction. So what we typically do is we allow them to experience the urge. 

27:45
We have one of the tools called a masturbation checklist, which is a tool that I'm very proud of. We've worked on it for many years. It's basically a checklist where you mark off all the different options that you have prior to viewing pornography or masturbating. So one of the questions could be do I have access to healthy sex right now? Perhaps sex with a spouse? Yes or no? You mark off. Am I going to experience guilt or shame if I were to masturbate or view pornography at this time? Yes or no? Am I breaking a predetermined boundary that I made with myself or my spouse when it comes to this behavior, yes or no? And it goes all the way down to asking them did I choose to defer this decision to a later date, yes or no? And I tell the clients it doesn't matter to me whether you viewed pornography or not after that. What mattered is that, prior to the actual act, you trained your subconscious mind to become aware of it. 

28:49
What happens as they go through the program is eventually, before they engage in the act, their mind brings up one of these questions. I could, is my wife available? Could I be intimate? Well, you know what I could be right, but prior to getting into our program, they were never doing that. They were immediately triggered. An example would be, let's say, someone worked from home, which is very common during COVID. Right after COVID they're still working from home and we find out that their trigger is their partner leaving. So let's say, their partner is like hey, hon, I'm off to go run some errands and he's like all right, I'll see you later, he's totally fine. 

29:27
But the moment he hears the door close or the garage door open and hears the car screech out the driveway, something is triggered. That's his conditioning and immediately he starts going through what we call his ritual of engaging in that behavior. He now has his prerequisites to act out. There's privacy, he's able to do it. He heard the car moving and then he engages in the behavior. He's able to do it. He heard the car moving and then he engages in the behavior. 

29:54
Now, when he has the masturbation checklist and he has conditioned it into him, he immediately becomes aware Is there a predetermined boundary that I made or an agreement that I set which I am crossing? And then he's able to bring himself to the present moment, acknowledge what's happening and then make a decision from there, which is very different from all other programs which talk about go for a walk, take a cold shower, distract yourself, call an accountability partner. All of these things are. They are all dependent on willpower. We want you to accept your behavior, increase your self-awareness in the process and become ultimately what we call an expert at yourself. I'm not the expert. Your therapist isn't the expert. I'm someone who's kind of just seen the movie before, so I can tell you what's going to happen very well. But everybody leaves our program knowing that they can rely on themselves, and that's basically the basis of all the tools in our program St. They can rely on themselves, and that's that's basically the basis of all the tools in our program. 

30:55 - Stacey (Host)
Stacey, that's awesome. I just have another question that just made me think of something that I know I've heard women talk about. I think a lot of women want to know like why would a guy choose masturbation over me? I'm here, I'm pretty Like why would you go do that when I'm right here and I'm into it? Like why does that happen? 

31:13 - Mark (Host)
It's a valid question, right, yeah, hey guys, thanks for listening. If you like what you're hearing, please leave us a review, give us a follow, subscribe. All those things, all those things, all the things. 

31:34 - JK Emezi (Guest)
We love it because we read each and every comment and it shape the show. So we would appreciate it, please. And back to the show. Absolutely valid question. I'm glad you asked. Um, we're guys would be the easy question, but here's the truth. Men are biologically programmed for novelty. Right? We're designed to basically spread our seed. That's why we, we carry certain amount of sperm. They talk about it in the hundreds of millions or whatever it is, but that's how we are designed on a biological level. We are designed for novelty. 

32:02
Now, in order for us to live in a civilized society, in order for us to raise healthy family, healthy family units and well-adjusted children, we must make the decision to be monogamous or set up family units that are beneficial to all of us. So that's the thing about being a human being. You can go either way. You can go totally primal, you can mix it up or you can choose to live within certain structures. Most of us understand that those structures bring the most happiness to us. So, when a lot of women ask this, when this happens there's a phenomenon called betrayal trauma, which is a very unfortunate situation that occurs to the spouses of porn addicts, usually because her assumption has always been that her husband only had eyes for her, that he was committed to her, that when we got married and had this agreement, it was me. But women and men are wired differently and women's sexual behavior differs through different periods of relationship. Usually, when they're married with kids, what they are focused on is their husband being a good provider and being as present as possible. Anytime that he engages in behavior that could put her or her children at risk for being left alone, in a very primal way, she's going to react. 

33:32
It's very important within our program anyway that we acknowledge this with men. We don't pretend that some guys will show up and say things like JK, the truth is I only love my wife blah blah, blah blah. I'm like. I know you love her, we all know you love her. But let's also acknowledge that you do sometimes feel sexually attracted to other women. Now you may not be able to acknowledge that to your wife, but you must acknowledge it to all the other men in this program, because without acknowledging it you're not going to move past it. And then we go through a process in our program called rewiring your brain to monogamy, which is as far. I've been in a relationship for 15 years myself. I live with my partner and she's here, but I tell men that you cannot fully be monogamous without acknowledging the reality of other women out there. 

34:30
And many men jump into monogamy, thinking that it's this program that's designed, that the minute you put a ring on it and say you're committed, that's the man you're going to be. No, no, no. If you're going to do that, you're not ready for it. You must acknowledge your emotions and your sexual feelings towards other women. You must reconcile yourself with it in order to be a truly monogamous man, and I think that's another thing that makes ending this behavior with pornography difficult, because many men don't want to acknowledge it or they go through programs that repress that, because the person who is leading the program is the same way. He's like you need to be a good husband. You are not a good husband if you're looking at other women. 

35:13
One last thing on this, and the example I like to use to illustrate this is I give an example of when I'm out with my partner. The way we envision a healthy relationship and I do this in porn reboot too is what most men would do is they would not acknowledge that there is a highly attractive woman right there, but they would try to sneak a peek when she's walking away or get another. Look. Right now this might seem innocent enough. However, it builds up over time because if he's repressing it now and he's feeling that he is constricted and restricted with his partner, the person he's supposed to spend the rest of his life with, right, then what's happening when he's alone? 

36:03
When he's alone, he feels that you know what? I'm released from bondage, I can view pornography, I can look at this, I can look at that. They're like well, jk, what do you do? I was like. We both acknowledge it. I acknowledge it immediately, to the point that my partner will even say hey, that's your type, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's my type. But guess what? It's one look, you acknowledge that and you are done. There's no compulsivity, there's no constantly looking, there's no fantasizing. The fact that you are able to acknowledge it in a healthy way makes your relationship a much healthier place, because you can walk around with the full knowledge that, yeah, they're attractive women here and there. I'm not going to do anything, I can just have that open conversation with my partner. Stacy, I went off on that. No, no, I love that. 

36:51 - Stacey (Host)
No, I really like it because it may, you know, I always I'll be the one I'll say oh my god, her boobs are majestic, or like she's beautiful, like to to your to eric, to eric, and eric will be like she's beautiful, like to. 

37:00 - JK Emezi (Guest)
To your. To eric yeah, my wife was the same thing and eric will be like she's really pretty whatever, like he pretends, like you know he's, I'm like it's not a big deal, she's all right. She's all right, she's hot. 

37:09 - Stacey (Host)
I don't mind saying her boobs are majestic yes, a woman has a majestic, majestic boobs, like we have to talk about that we should go out. 

37:18 - Mark (Host)
So you can point that out like that I will I never seen stuff like that. 

37:21 - Stacey (Host)
I will. 

37:22 - Mark (Host)
I mean you got to understand. 

37:22 - Stacey (Host)
Like you know, there's always going to be someone better looking than you out there. 

37:26 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, I agree, my wife and I do the same thing. Like that guy's really good looking. 

37:30 - JK Emezi (Guest)
Turn around you know it's the same thing, yeah, so I have a question ever. 

37:43 - Mark (Host)
Work with the wives number one and number two. I know again statistically, men are over 500% more likely to be addicted to porn than women, but that means that there are women out there that are addicted to porn. Do you work with women? How is that pornography or how is that addiction different? If you know, if? 

37:56 - JK Emezi (Guest)
you work with them. 

37:58
Yeah, I don't work with them. The reason why is when I began my practice, I did start working with women and I came to find out really quickly that their mechanism of addiction is a little bit different from men's. Typically, women have some other co-occurring disorder and pornography is a symptom of it most of the time. It's rarely as clear cut as a man. The second thing is that men are very visual and a lot of women are too, don't get me wrong. They're fully capable of that. But the way that women are aroused is different. Most times there's a storyline, there's a plot when it comes to what they like, but that also reflects in their addictive behavior. So sometimes for them to be addicted to pornography or sex, there has to be some element of a plot. A plot would be love, addiction or a story they've created about this person, the guy that they want to be with, and there's this story about who he is and what he is Fabio. 

38:57 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah, you're just like, there you go, all the romance novels, right, all the romance novels, there you go. 

39:02 - JK Emezi (Guest)
Exactly novels. There you go, exactly there you go, and I quickly realized that, um, this was not my lane. I was like I have to stay in my lane. Female therapists and psychiatrists who work with women who have compulsive sexual behaviors are usually treating something else, like some form of depression, bipolar disorder or some past trauma. So answer the question. 

39:24 - Mark (Host)
Fascinating. That's fascinating, fascinating. 

39:26 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah, seriously. 

39:28 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, how, and you? 

39:30 - JK Emezi (Guest)
had a second question, mark on. You had a follow-up on that. 

39:33 - Mark (Host)
Well, it was do you treat, do you work with women and do you work with the spouses of the men? Do they come in together ever? 

39:45 - JK Emezi (Guest)
They come in together initially for the most part. So sometimes when a man shows up and he shows up or puts in his application for him that he showed up because his spouse gave him an ultimatum we're not gonna work with him, because if she gave him an ultimatum, he's only going to be doing it to satisfy her and it's just gonna be an uphill battle. He doesn only going to be doing it to satisfy her and it's just going to be an uphill battle. He doesn't want to be there. We typically speak with the spouse because it gives us a very clear idea of the relationship dynamic. Sometimes they're actually in a codependent relationship, right? Sometimes there's just a lot going on there and we realize that the spouse is going to sabotage the relationship. Or the spouse is trying to control it, or the spouse herself has betrayal trauma, which simply means that one of the symptoms of that is being very controlling. So she now feels that he has betrayed her by viewing this and in order for her to protect herself, she needs to control every aspect of this, including his reboot as well. So she now wants to know every did you relapse today? 

40:49
Did you slip today? What did you talk about with JK? What did you talk about with Dr Eastman, with Dr Rankin? Those are our other coaches in elevated recovery. What was the conversation like? And we need to determine this very early so we can nip it in the bud and set clear, healthy boundaries Things like your spouse does not need to know. Every single time you slip was just like oh, I couldn't control it so I jerked off in the shower. Oh, you're in trouble now the night's over. It's ruined. You have to at dinner. You're like oh, did I slip? I don't. Yeah, it's awkward. So those are the only times we speak to them first, but we do refer out to other professionals to work with a couple together got it okay. 

41:38 - Stacey (Host)
I got two questions. One is why do you call it reboot and not recovery? 

41:48 - JK Emezi (Guest)
Okay, great question. Ultimately, I went through the recovery process, and recovery in this country is a very loaded word. It comes with all of these assumptions, right. Like addiction. Recovery is what one day at a time just taking it one day at a time man just got to get through to today. It's also something you do forever. Hi, my name is jk. I'm a sex addict and I've been in recovery for 16 years. No, I haven't been in recovery for 16 years. I was done with this after two years. It's a life sentence in this country and it's an outdated model. 

42:15
What's actually healthy is to hit the reset button, a reboot button, and it's just like your computer has so many tabs open, so many programs running, that it has slowed down. Now you can keep trying to close the tabs one by one, because you're going to be doing it day by day, every day. Your computer is going to be slow. Or you can hit the reset button is a perfectly healthy, loving and compassionate thing to do, a courageous thing to do as well, to rebuild yourself as a man or a woman from the bottom up, to redefine your values. Okay, I'm 42 years old, I'm 45. I'm 55. This is where I am. I cannot keep living in regret of the past. I've already messed up, but I've decided today I'm going to change everything New values, new standards. It doesn't mean that we're forgetting the past. What it does mean is that we can look to the past and we can reframe it. There were so many lessons there. When we reboot in the now, the way we view the past is so different. We look at the past for the lessons we can learn. When it comes to like setting up the values, what we do when people join the program is we do set boundaries, we do take them away from pornography, we make sure they are not viewing pornography till they get to the point that their brain rewires and they start to discover what their original arousal template is. So oftentimes they start learning things like oh, um, actually I don't know what intimacy is. There isn't any intimacy in pornography. When you're watching, being a spectator, watching people having sex, there's no intimacy there. So they come to realize that you know what I actually like the intimacy with the sex right. It lasts longer, it feels better, I can actually go more times because there's intimacy and I realized without it as soon as I got satisfaction, I wanted to be out. So there are many things that change that um encourage, and the only way to encourage that is not to put all these boxes around people who are trying to end their behavior. So, in general, what we recommend for our clients is join the program and, when you're a part of it, stay off pornography, and we'll help you do this. When you discover what your arousal template is, then you decide. 

44:33
The truth is there are some men who think they can view pornography in moderation. A lot of them quickly realize that modern pornography today is a wonderful marketing system. I mean it really is. They will literally. They are studying people's behavior. They know what you're watching. They know what you are going to escalate to. They know what you are going to be addicted to. They have the data. It's designed to be habit forming and it is hitting the most primal parts of you. It's releasing dopamine. You are experiencing orgasm as the reward. I mean that is phenomenal. So most people end up realizing that it's not something that they can do in moderation. However, you can have as much sex as you want to have. If you want to masturbate here and there, you can do it. The key is making sure that it's not a compulsive behavior. 

45:29 - Mark (Host)
We have a lot of parents that listen and watch our show, that have kids of all ages. Right, my wife and I made the decision when my son was born that not a lot of people agree with it was. We realized we could not manage exposure. What advice do you have for parents who are afraid that their child, despite their best efforts, with all the parental controls, might find themselves in the same situation that you blossomed into? 

45:56 - JK Emezi (Guest)
First of all, mark, I think you made a great decision. I think the decision you made with your wife is exemplary. It's the decision that needs to be made for the times, and for those of you who are listening, who are worried, the truth is that it's simply a matter of when, not if, your child will be exposed to pornography. A good example is this we have what? 24, 25 employees in my company, and most of them are women. Every single woman who has a child that is over the age of 12, their son, the boys, have been exposed to pornography Every single one, and they're from all across the United States, I mean. That's one reason they work with us too, so it's just if within our company, statistically speaking, that's already happening at random. It's happened while they were working with this company. It's probably going to happen to your child. But I also think it's a wonderful opportunity to change something that we haven't had for a long time. 

46:56
One of the reasons that I believe that I got addicted was because my parents were very conservative and attitudes around sex was so weird. Like I vividly remember, my mom wanted to talk to me about consent and the way that she talked about consent in her own conservative ways, that there was some movie playing on TV on cable, and there was a very light like rape scene. It was like a non consensual scene, I remember, because there wasn't anything shown, it just cut off. But she rewinded it and she called me to the living room and my sisters came out to running my little sister. And she's like no, just, just just, jk. 

47:35
So I came in and I'm like, yes, mom. And she's like stand there. She's sitting there. It's after a long, long day. She's like drinking a beer. She's just like I'm gonna show you something right and you never do this to a woman. And then she played it and I'm just like, oh, my god, this is the stuff I'm. So she's like no, look at it, this is stuff you're supposed to look away. And she was like this is called rape. You never do that to a woman. It's hurting a woman. And I was like, uh, yes, mom, um, yeah. And she's like okay, she, mom, yeah. And she's like, okay, she sips a beer. And she's like go back and play with your sisters, that was the whole talk. 

48:08
That was the talk. But was it great? Did it serve its purpose? Yeah, as awkward as it might have been for me, I never forgot it. It just stuck with me. It was burned into my brain that you do not do that, but it did not prevent me from viewing pornography. 

48:27
My point is that we have a lot of impact on kids. Just having the conversation, letting them know what sex is, also letting them know that it's their choice if they want to do it. But they should understand that. It's number one, it's for adults and that number two is that isn't love or intimacy. Now, I'm not a parent. 

48:49
I don't know how to express what intimacy is. I would I would call it closeness. If I was speaking with a child or young man, I would say that is sex. When you view it on a screen, that does not show that two people are close. Just always know that that is not demonstrating the closeness between two people. And please, please, please, for those of you listening, have the conversation, because the things they will come across on social media, on TikTok, on Instagram they are scary. 

49:21
I don't think the solution is to keep your children away from them. I think you should have the best parental controls on all these devices, that openness and that vulnerability, your kids being able to come to you and say, mom, dad, I saw something weird, and you being able to be totally chill and just go like what was it? Was it something that had to do with? It'd just be cool, like body language, everything. I think that's the most important thing. I think, man, if there's one thing, as somebody who was a porn addict and this just destroyed my early twenties it would have been so cool to be able to talk to my mom and dad about it. 

50:00 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, that's crazy. 

50:03 - Stacey (Host)
Wow. So in 2022, onlyfans made $5.6 billion in revenue. These are things that our kids are exposed to and you've said I'm going to read this because I like this. The world is rapidly sexualizing and morally rotting Sex trafficking, onlyfans, ai, ai, girlfriends, normalization of child sexual abuse it's time for a porn reboot to become a movement number one what's going on in the world? Number two how do we get in on this porn reboot? 

50:35 - JK Emezi (Guest)
one of the hardest things for me to talk about is what's going on in the world, mainly because it's the one thing that I feel very powerless over. I'll be honest with you I'm thankful that I don't have children. I and my partner. We often talk about it and I'm very just respect to those of you who have kids. Really, you know, know, on instagram, for instance, we have a few instagram accounts, mainly because instagram keeps trying to shut us down because they think we are pornography. But at the same time, I've collaborated with different creators who, um, basically their whole instagram thing is hunting down child predators. So it's one of these things where they'll set up the child predator to show up, and they have exposed thousands of accounts that have legitimate. There was one they showed that had 137 000 legitimate followers and all it was was um, and it's not. 

51:40
We don't call it child pornography, it's. It's images of children being sexually abused. All it was was just images of children not being sexual abused, sexually abused, just um, girls in swimsuits, that sort of stuff. But it had thousands of these and you could go through the comments and these were actual people. You could see the men and they and some of these men had pictures of their families on their instagrams which were not private. But that's not what the worst part was. The worst part was that when you go to the link and there are many of these the link leads to the telegram app where you can actually get like images. So, basically, the instagram page is the light stuff and you can get the explicit stuff by being in the group, and the group had tens of thousands of telegram members and, as far as I'm concerned, all of this is fueled by pornography. 

52:41
I understand firsthand, and by working with clients, what it takes. I don't think there's any company that has worked with as many members of the clergy as we have Maybe because I openly say that I'm not a Christian, but I believe in God and my style of doing things. But a lot of clergy come to me, have worked with bishops. I have worked with pastors from all over the world and I am fully aware of the type of material they watch. And many of them also come to me because, as recovery coaches, we are an unregulated industry, which means that we are not required to report the way a therapist would. I will help you end your behavior. If you've hurt somebody and you come to me, I will take the requisite legal action, but we're a little bit more of a gray area so we can have some conversations that your therapist never would. 

53:32
My point being without exposing anybody that there are upstanding citizens out there who were not raised like this, who tell me the only reason I started watching stuff that would get me put in jail was because of pornography. It escalated JK. I did not see it coming. I am so scared. I would never do any of those things to anyone. I would never hurt people in those ways, but that is what gets me off. 

54:02
When it comes to society, guys and for those of you listening, it's not just adults when I started professionally training to be a recovery coach, I was training in Utah, out in Utah, and I worked with a group of therapists and there was a facility there that had hundreds of kids and those kids were kids who had acted out sexually. When I say kids, it means that they were under the age of 13 years old. When I say sexually acted out, it means they had sexually assaulted an infant, a toddler, their cousin, another kid, or tried to sexually assault their babysitter, another kid or try to sexually assault their babysitter, in almost every case, while there might have been some sexual trauma or abuse involved, there was always pornography as a part of it. Pornography came in somewhere or their abuser exposed them to pornography Again. We can tell just in the most basic parts of society, even those who may not be aware of this, doing sleepovers is no longer a thing. Remember how it used to be a thing? Now people are just like I don't know about sleepovers, like you don't know who's going to be at the home, you don't know who's cousin, brother, you don't know any of those things. So I'll say this I'm doing a study on OnlyFans right now. 

55:23
It's funny, you should bring it up. Um, I have the. I probably have the study pulled up on my phone, but I was shocked to find out that it was about 92 or 93 percent of only fans users of men, specifically on only fans are married men. This is the most comprehensive study. It came out a few weeks ago and I pulled the study and I was looking through it Married men. Now, nothing is conclusive with that. I'm going to dive into the data because I love to share it with my audience, but I think that goes back to what I said about culturally. We're not acknowledging the novelty and because we didn't acknowledge it with pornography. 

56:07
When something like OnlyFans shows up, it is a very natural progression to move from pornography to OnlyFans. It's also socially accepted. You don't see anyone denouncing it, you don't see the government doing anything about it. But now it is almost a rite of passage for a young woman to have her OnlyFans. And my clients who show up who are trying to date now say that women are like they are on social media not to get a date but just to shill their OnlyFans. That's pretty much it. It's a business. Whatever way they want to call it, if they want to call it the politically correct word sex work, it's still a conditioning an entire generation to be prostitutes. Basically it's sexualizing them and it's putting a price tag on their sexuality. 

57:05 - Stacey (Host)
So sad. 

57:06 - Mark (Host)
So your addiction right, it kind of fueled the trajectory or defined the trajectory of your life and your career as you started your elevativerecoveryorg right. Yeah, if you hadn't had that addiction, what would your life have looked like? Have you ever thought about that? What would your career be? What would you have done? 

57:28 - JK Emezi (Guest)
I've often tried to think about that, um, but it's very hard to ask anybody who dealt with an addiction, um, what their life would have been like because, um, for those of us whom had started so early, it colored every aspect of of what we did. Right, even our ambitions were secretly based on living out our fantasies, right? I think that if I what I do, do know that might be a little bit more certain was that if I didn't choose this every day energetically and it doesn't matter, because most of the people are not going to work with me, they're going to work with their local therapist, they're going to go to a group, they're going to go talk to their spouse, but it has to be sold and we need more people selling it and talking about it and putting it out there. So I know this is cliche. This is not answering your question. My point is I can't imagine what I would be doing, mark. I think this is what I was meant to do always. I just wouldn't be doing anything else, man. 

58:53 - Mark (Host)
Well, as I said, you're helping a lot more people than you would be if you were a district sales manager. 

58:58 - Stacey (Host)
But wait, after 12 years of coaching, you're hanging it up at the end of this year. Why but? 

59:02 - JK Emezi (Guest)
wait, after 12 years of coaching, you're hanging it up at the end of this year. Why, yeah? So it's because pornography needs to become a movement. We've grown as a company. One of our groups alone has 400 clients. I personally coach about 54, 55 clients, which is a lot, and most of them are executives and business owners. 

59:21
But at the end of the day I put out some stats we help about 200 plus people a year actually reboot, like end, their behavior. We could be doing so much more and I'm not going to be able to do that just sitting behind a mic alone. Right, there's something about meeting people in person, them seeing you in in the flesh on stage, shaking hands. The energy of this would also be so different if I was sitting right there with you guys around that table. It would be so different, right, the impact would be different. So, um, got some talented people in the company who can take over the coaching part and it's time for me to step into being the founder of this. I dealt with this behavior, I've overcome it. I'm the example and the standard and I'm going to put myself out there. 

01:00:07 - Mark (Host)
Love it. 

01:00:08 - JK Emezi (Guest)
That's why coaching. 

01:00:09 - Mark (Host)
Fantastic, it's been awesome. I'm glad we. It was certainly worth the wait. 

01:00:13 - Stacey (Host)
And what can we do to help you? How can we help you start this movement? 

01:00:17 - JK Emezi (Guest)
I would say the best way you could help me would be, firstly, to talk about it more movement. I would say the best way you could help me would be, firstly, to talk about it more like step into the awkwardness of it with the people around you. Y'all are people who have influence, so have more people to talk about this. Have somebody on to talk about betrayal trauma. Have somebody on to talk about sex trafficking. People listen to this and they resonate. And then the second thing is just send them my way to our podcast. We actually have a wait list to work with me, so just don't even bother, but go to my podcast. It's called the Porn Reboot Podcast. Or you can find me on YouTube, jk last name is E-M-E-Z-I. You can search for Elevated Recovery or Porn Reboot. Awesome, I learned so much today. All for elevated recovery upon reboot. 

01:00:59 - Stacey (Host)
Awesome, I learned so much today. All right, buddy. 

01:01:02 - Mark (Host)
Thank you so much. 

01:01:02 - Stacey (Host)
Thank you, JK. Thank you for watching. 

01:01:04 - Mark (Host)
And we will see you soon. 

01:01:11 - Stacey (Host)
You're still here. You're still listening. Thanks for listening to the Gurus and Game Changers podcast While you're here. If you enjoyed it, please take a minute to rate this episode and leave us a quick review. We want to know what you thought of the show and what you took from it and how it might have helped you. We read and appreciate every comment. Thanks, See you next week.