00:03 - Stacey (Host)
I feel like we just had a really intellectual conversation. That was also fun, was it intellectual?
00:08 - Mark (Host)
or was it wise? Oh See what I did there.
00:11 - Stacey (Host)
They don't correlate, you see what I did there. They don't correlate.
00:15 - Mark (Host)
No One is smarts and one is wisdom. One is intelligence and one is wisdom, and that's what we talked about with Dr Laura Gabayan, apparently the foremost authority on wisdom, because she conducted a study that nobody had ever done before dude like valedictorian of her high school and her college ucla, by the way and just a super smart woman.
00:37 - Stacey (Host)
I asked her if she thought she was wise. It's an interesting answer that she gives yeah um, especially because one of the key factors in being wise is humility.
00:45 - Mark (Host)
Is humility right.
00:47 - Stacey (Host)
She did demonstrate that.
00:48 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
So I think if I were doing the research, Casey Grant from University of Delaware, I would say, yes, she's wise From University of Delaware.
00:57 - Stacey (Host)
Not valedictorian, by the way.
00:58 - Mark (Host)
That's funny. Look she identified in her study. She identified eight dimensions of wisdom from people who were nominated to be part of her study because other people thought they were wise so you couldn't even self whatever self regulate. No, you couldn't, you couldn't raise your hand and say, yes, you couldn't self nominate.
01:19 - Stacey (Host)
Because, again, humility is part of wisdom, according to the study you nominate yourself and you wouldn't, you're out. Neither of us are wise, just so you know. But we can be wise.
01:27 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
She wrote a book.
01:28 - Stacey (Host)
She wrote a book called Common Wisdom and if you do, if you read this book and there's a little like homework assignments in here. It's not crazy, you guys. Everyone can do it.
01:36 - Mark (Host)
No, it's introspection. It's int really quick read, it's very easy, very to the point, but that sort of belies her scientific mindset of how she writes it. So it's really easy to digest and the topic you know. She says that wisdom is not a sexy topic and I guess you can make the argument for that. But it's fascinating to talk about it with somebody who's an expert on it. I'd say it's sexy. You guys are gonna love this.
02:07 - Stacey (Host)
This is dr laura gabayan.
02:08 - Mark (Host)
Hi, I'm stacy and I am mark, and this is the gurus at game changers podcast. Welcome everybody. I have a question for you are you a wise person? Would other people say that you're wise? And how would you even know that? Because, unlike intelligence, wisdom's ethereal right, it's not easily measurable. But I'll bet even so, you can name somebody that you think is wise because you know it when you see it. But what does that mean, right? Why are they wise? Well, today's guest, Dr Laura Gabayan, a physician, a research scientist, she set out to answer just that question what is wisdom and how do I get it? After countless interviews, crunching all the data, her results were surprising, I think, maybe fascinating. She was able to pinpoint eight very specific traits that most of her people in her study shared, that formed the core of their wisdom. Right? The question is do you have all eight? Do I have all eight? I don't think I have all eight. Well, we weren't interviewed for the book, so probably not. That's true. That's valid. That's valid. Welcome to the show, Dr.
03:14 - Stacey (Host)
So nice to meet you. Thank you for having me, thanks for being here, so I'm going to jump right into it. Here is the book everyone and this wisdom research project involved you having face-to-face interviews with 60 quote-unquote wise individuals. How did those people who nominated the wise people, what was their parameter around what? What was wise?
03:40 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
so to do research project, you have to do a research project, you have to do the background and figure out who like. What has been done about this? And so I found out that the only people who can tell who is wise are other people, not computers, not tests, nothing. And then I found out that wisdom has an inverse you relationship with age, that the wise are in their 50s, 60s and 70s. So we limited our group to 50, 79. And then we had a definition. It was you know, people make meaningful decisions, give good advice, but people didn't really use the definition. They kind of knew, oh yeah, that person I went to college with, or that person you know, just random people, and these were not friends, these were just people that they thought were wise, probably after 20 interviews, and these were people who didn't know each other. A lot of what they said was very similar, but yet I kept going. And then we capped it at 60.
04:53 - Stacey (Host)
were these people, like, really flattered to be?
04:55 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
chosen for this book and study they were and what led to them agreeing to do this, was being flattered right.
05:05 - Stacey (Host)
I would think if someone called me and said, hey, I think you're really wise, would you be interested? And I'd be like, yes, I would.
05:11 - Mark (Host)
Is there, like, of the eight dimensions that you sort of settled on right as as the commonalities, is there one that drives more than the rest? I mean, we'll cover, we'll cover all eight, but is there one that you'd say? This is the one?
05:24 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
It's very interesting because a majority of the people I met had encountered an obstacle.
05:32 - Stacey (Host)
Oh yeah, that's what we love.
05:34 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
That's why resilience was the first one.
05:37 - Mark (Host)
So do you think that's?
05:38 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
a requisite experience. Yeah.
05:41
You need to have the struggle to grow from that struggle to attain a wisdom overall yes, and it was interesting because it was not viewed as I mean, look, it's not fun. No one wants an obstacle, sure, but it was the obstacle that led them to have a greater understanding of life, of the meaning of life, of how to approach it, and that's how it was ah, that makes me so crazy, because I I just wish there was a way that we could get gain like knowledge and expertise and all these things, without having to be slapped in the face go through it right obstacle, but it is what it's, the truth.
06:20 - Stacey (Host)
I know you were very successful in school and, like you did really well, I think you're were valedictorian of your high school class, and then you went on to medical school. Obviously, we all know. Well, we don't all know, but we know, we do know, we hear that it's very, very difficult. Dr Labroggie, would you call yourself wise?
06:39 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
I think that's just hard to say. I mean, it's weird to say Humility was one of them. Okay, okay, and I had no idea what wisdom was right. I definitely found certain traits in there that I identify with, but I don't know.
06:56 - Stacey (Host)
I don't know if I would say oh, yeah I'm sure you can say it with being humble, like you know. I mean, you did enough research on it.
07:03 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
I feel like I make good decisions and but outside that I don't know if I can say, and for example, spirituality, I was never spiritual what physicians are right it's all science yeah yeah valid science was was everything and being it.
07:23
Believing in something bigger was foolish. And so now I'm more spiritual in general, but I was never before kindness. I'm not. I don't feel like I'm a mean person, yeah, but, and I married a very kind man, but I wouldn't say that was the first thing. I don't know. It's funny because kindness was our second theme or element and the people that talked about it was something they gravitated towards and it was the friends they made, the people they were around, the way they approached their life. Kindness was the big one.
08:04 - Mark (Host)
See, but here's the interesting thing for me. So, like I get resilience, you went through something. You learned from that, something. It adds to your wisdom, right? I wonder, with kindness and with humility, are you kind because you're wise or are you wise because you're kind? Are you humble because you are wise and you know that that's the way to go? Or is it vice versa? Are you wise because you're humble and you know you're not all that and you need to take information in like? Is there a perspective on that? That came from the study I don't know.
08:37 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
I mean, I, I think, with humility, I definitely felt like people just had a sense of, hey, there's so many accomplished people out there and they were just. It was kind of like how they view life. You know, I'm not here to make you feel small by making myself feel big and the kindness factor was just kind of the way they lived. It was like they volunteered. The way they lived it was like they volunteered or they had nonprofits. They surrounded themselves with kind people. They.
09:13 - Stacey (Host)
It was just so important to them was there like a moment when you're like I know I want to do a book on wise wisdom, like what? How did that come about?
09:23 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
well, I have encountered my own health challenges and in many ways, being a physician and talking to mds was a curse. I felt like, you know, people were just so limited in the way they view things. And that's when I was like, wait, who kind of looks outside, who has a broader lens, who kind of has a bigger perspective? And that's when I thought about the why's. So I didn't really initially think about wisdom per se. It kind of was like an organic way of coming about it. And then I looked into wisdom. I'm like, wait a second, you know, all these major religions talk about it, these famous people say, oh, this is wisdom, but yet we really don't know. I was like, well, I'm going to interview people and figure it out. I'm a scientist so I can, I can create this study and I can model it. I didn't know what them was and I can model it.
10:30 - Mark (Host)
Wow that was one of my favorite parts of your book, by the way, when you went through all the different religions and even you know what aristotle thought of wisdom and plato, and it was just fascinating to see sort of how it evolved over the time and from the different perspectives and then to take your very like, if you want to say, secular viewpoint of I'm just going to sit down and talk to people that are wise and let's figure out what makes those people tick. And yeah, I really enjoyed that from top to bottom how, how you covered the subject Very well done.
10:58 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
And you know what, being a scientist, I'm used to publishing papers that are very to the point. Yeah, the way you would write a paragraph, you'd write a sentence, and so that's what the book is meant to be very to the point.
11:15 - Stacey (Host)
Was there anything like, as you were going through the interviews and you know, like writing, doing your research, that blew your mind about these wise people? Was there anything? Because, yeah, we all know wise people are these things in a way but like, was there anything that like popped out in your head and you're like, oh my god I think the focus on kindness was a big one.
11:31 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
I'm middle eastern and where I come, kindness is viewed as a weakness. Wow, it's viewed, as you know, bowing down to someone being a pushover, and they were just so focused on being kind to others and themselves and in the way they live their life.
11:55 - Stacey (Host)
And that was fascinating. It feels like in certain cultures like as you get older, you know you actually get more respect. But it feels like in this culture in America, sometimes you get less respect as you get older and I'm wondering if there is any type of this wisdom that wasn't like if you had any conversations where they were saying, yes, I understand these things, but I'm not getting respected for these things from the youth of america my teenage. Yeah, I mean like I is, was that? Did that come out at all?
12:28 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
it was. You know it was more of a I feel bad for them. I love that flip the switch. The reality is, wisdom is not a sexy topic, and if we look at the internet, you know it's all about glitz and glamour and looking good, and it's harder to look good when you're older. Yeah, tell me about it. So a lot of people focus on the young, but one of our questions was what advice they had for the younger generation, and it really seemed like they felt bad for them. And it's true, they're very involved in their emotions. They're kind of more superficial in many ways. They may not know that that something matters when it doesn't. So it was. It was a sense of oh I, I really have feel bad for them.
13:23 - Mark (Host)
We need wisdom more than ever now you know, you mentioned your list of questions and I I have it in front of me and I love every one of these questions. In fact, I might be asking some of our future guests a couple of these questions. Um, number 10 on your list was how did you gain your wisdom? How do people answer that question? Hey guys, thanks for listening. If you like what you're hearing, please leave us a review, give us a follow, subscribe. Subscribe all those things. All those things. We love it because we read each and every comment and it helps shape the show, so we would appreciate it.
13:55 - Stacey (Host)
Please and back back to the show how did you gain your wisdom?
13:59 - Mark (Host)
how do people answer that question?
14:01 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
most of them was experienced, but they were just very into learning from others. Now, it didn't have to be an expert in whatever, but it was just learning their perspective. Do you have a favorite one of these questions? You know, if they encountered an obstacle or difficulty, that served as their. You know, teacher, that one people were like wow, you know that's they were. They had so many interesting answers.
14:28 - Mark (Host)
Yeah.
14:30 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
And that's where our theme of resilience came back.
14:33 - Mark (Host)
Sure, the one that I was going to ask you about was actually the next one after that obstacle question was what ideals or mantras do you live by?
14:42 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
They had different thoughts and different ideals, and one of them two of them that really stuck with me was happiness is an inside job.
14:55 - Mark (Host)
So true.
14:57 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
And be fiercely flexible in anything you do.
15:01 - Mark (Host)
Let's talk about a new one. Let's talk about curiosity. Where was that on your list of where it fit most people or where most people exhibited that characteristic?
15:14 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
With curiosity and creativity. Creativity, they had to specifically say that was an important part of their life in order for them to get that trait got it and I am looking at or thinking about wisdom. I feel like charity is a foundation for all of them and having that sense of wonder or imagination or, you know, not being okay with the status quo, just being curious, I feel like that's an important part.
15:45 - Mark (Host)
Yeah.
15:46 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
So, yes, they got curiosity because they mentioned it, but it was more of I don't know. It was not just how they mentioned it, it was just how they lived their life and I felt like, yeah, it was the foundation of wisdom, I think you can tell they were curious by what they were saying.
16:06 - Stacey (Host)
Do you think like was there any type of correlation? Like, as you know, because you said it was 50 to 79, is that the age 50 to 70?
16:15 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
yes, and those. That's how you know. It's funny because, as I said, wisdom has an inverse you relationship with age. Yes, because once you're older, even though you may be wiser, you start to lose your flexibility you kind of find your ways, and so that's why we stuck to 50 to 79. And this goes back to the eight elements Of the 60 people, most people had two, three, some had five, but only one person had all eight. Oh my gosh.
16:51 - Stacey (Host)
Wow.
16:52 - Mark (Host)
In your mind, is that person the wisest of them?
16:55 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
Well, it's funny because he teaches wisdom, so he teaches wisdom to, to his seniors above the age of 60. Dang, he was like a few months shy of turning 80. He was 79. He's like I made it how do you?
17:12 - Stacey (Host)
not nominate that guy, right? Well, I mean, I don't think it's a competition, no, but I'm saying like how do you not nominate him for the study?
17:16 - Mark (Host)
oh for the study, yes, teaches wisdom, of course. So I but I'm saying, like, how do you not nominate him for the study? Oh for the study, yes, the guy that teaches wisdom Teaches wisdom, of course.
17:21 - Stacey (Host)
So my question was going to be do you think you get wiser as you get older? And that's what that you, you know. That's the correlation right To a point, right To a point because you lose flexibility, you get set in your ways.
17:41 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
Also, I'm sure we all know grandparents or people who are older, who are not necessarily white. Yeah, good point, you know. So one doesn't equate the other and that's why you know. It's funny, because when I was writing the book, both my editor and my publisher in the beginning part were talking about how our results are so strong that we're confident even if we had 6,000. That's what they said there's no way we'll have 6,000 wise people in the world ever, so they cut it down to 600. Ever, because there's just no way.
18:17 - Stacey (Host)
If someone is not wise, wise can they become wise? Can you teach someone to be wiser?
18:24 - Mark (Host)
what do I do?
18:25 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
yeah, it's not a sexy topic. So I think it's more of saying well, how do you live your life with more meaning, how and so? And that's why I broke it up, because if someone is not spiritual, for example, they can start to learn about it and they can incorporate in their life. Or if someone is not humble, I think they can think wait, I'm not gonna show off, why should I do this or why should I do that? And I think I think that's the reason we have to eat out. So it's for people to be like oh, I'm really bad at this, let me make it better. Or, um, I'm pretty good at that one, let me move to the next. So, yeah, I think it's. It's the idea of making it an important part of your life.
19:12 - Mark (Host)
I wanted to talk about positivity. I'm glad you brought that up, because anybody who listens to the show knows I'm big on positivity and positive mindset and all that kind of stuff. I don't see that as a trait of being wise. I see it as a tool for living a happy life. How does it relate to being wise?
19:34 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
I think I think they're all related and so positivity helps you be resilient. It helps you look at something and be like, okay, it's not that bad, I can overcome this now, I'll get through it, and just you know being resilient. So I feel like you know being all related. I feel like positivity is a big part because we all know we don't control what happens in the world and what happens in our life, but we can't control our perspective. The people I encountered had this kind of peace about them, like oh, everything will work out, it's not a big deal, and and possibly was just oh yeah, it was kind of like how they viewed.
20:23 - Stacey (Host)
Do they have healthy living too? Were they healthy people? Did that factor in at all Like?
20:29 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
you know, I definitely had people who would encounter cancer Right or difficult diagnosis. I assume that it was in the past Mm-hmm and not current.
20:42 - Stacey (Host)
Like healthy lifestyles, Like you know, like I wonder, I just wonder how much nutrition factors into like keeping your brain power through the years. And I'm sure that's a whole other can of worms, but it's like you know I try so hard to eat. Well, does that factor into you know?
20:57 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
anything. Well, that's a wise choice Well. Well, I think it's you thinking also that you deserve to have the good food. Okay, right, and so the food is nourishing your body. It gives you joy in a different way, mm-hmm. So I think that's how you probably view the food.
21:16 - Stacey (Host)
Gotcha.
21:18 - Mark (Host)
Did you get? So? One of the questions you asked is how do you deal with the difficulties in life? Right, which is probably you tackle them head on. Be flexible.
21:25 - Stacey (Host)
Resilience.
21:25 - Mark (Host)
Resilience right and tolerate it and whatever. But, um, did you get any stories to that question or a different one that were just like wow, I can't believe that you went through that or that you got through that or that you did that or that you thought that way at that moment?
21:43 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
I I definitely felt first of it wasn't that question that led to it. I think it was. I don't know what it was, but it was a story in my I mentioned my resilience chapter about a woman who had undergone a rape and she'd undergone many different things loss of a child, loss of a grandchild. She had just gone through so much and yet, similar to what I found I found, you know, she was okay about it, not that didn't bother her, but she was just like well, what can I do about? Or the woman who lost two husbands oh no oh my gosh.
22:22
And she's like what can I do? No, I can't do anything about this. All I can do is laugh about it.
22:28 - Mark (Host)
Wow.
22:28 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
So that question, the difficulty, one kind of just, was more of how do they approach things, and it didn't bring up the initial question of what happened in your life. And the difficulty one. One person said oh, I don't even use that word, I'd rather you know, know, I'd rather call it, you know, an experiment, or he just had different ways of looking at it.
22:54 - Stacey (Host)
Incredible. What do you think? Like I know, this was like not all of your research, like this book is, you know, I'm sure you have pages and pages more. Like what didn't make it in the book.
23:06 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
It's very interesting because I had an editor that I worked with and when I first sent him what I had, he was like this would be a pamphlet.
23:15 - Stacey (Host)
Really it was short, surprising.
23:19 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
It was even shorter than it is now. Oh, my gosh. And so he was like you need to add more soul to it. And I was like, well, I'm so used to it. That's just how I think Things have to be, to the point. So I didn't have a longer version, you had a shorter version. I had a much shorter version.
23:40 - Stacey (Host)
That's awesome.
23:41 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
It helped me make it longer and you beefed it up.
23:44 - Mark (Host)
Yes, People will understand being tolerant and being humble and being spiritual. It's you can. I think you can become that I can act more kindly to you or you could.
23:57 - Stacey (Host)
Actually I can choose to try to be more resilient or more positive.
24:02 - Mark (Host)
The one I feel like you don't have control over on this list is creativity, because people are either kind of creative by nature or that's the way they think, sort of a in a creation mindset, or not.
24:14 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
So that's the thought with. Creativity is that you know, some people are artists and they're more creative, or this and that, and but I? I tell people to think back to being a child. We were all children, we were all curious and creative, and we lose that, and so creativity, in a way, is kind of like your signature. It's the way you dress, it's who you are, it's how you all have it in us, and can you make it more? I'm sure you can. And can you make it more? I'm sure you can, whether it's trying new foods or trying new hobbies or being creative in not only how you think but how you approach your life. And, as I said, we all have it in us.
25:03 - Mark (Host)
The more we talk about this, the more interesting it becomes to me, because I'm seeing just how connected every one of these are.
25:09 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
Yeah, they really are.
25:11 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah, they're all connected, so cool.
25:13 - Mark (Host)
And maybe that's where the true core of the wisdom comes is in experiencing all these and the relationships between them. Because, like something horrible happened to that woman, two husbands died. Well, you can choose not to be resilient. You could choose to turn away from spirituality. We've seen that with other people in the show. You could choose to not be tolerant of new opportunity as a result, or other people wanting to offer you advice or whatever. You could choose not to be positive. You can make those choices, but the wise person is interconnected with all those already. So it goes back to my original. Are you wise before you're one of these traits, or you have these traits and therefore you're wise?
25:52 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
it really is both I think it's both, and I you know it's funny because someone asked me that you need wisdom to live a meaningful life or the verse. Do you get? That's a great question, you know, do, and. So I think it's having. It's just realizing that what happens in life is there for a purpose. Yeah, they're teachers, you, and, and, and, and, knowing that it'll be okay, it'll, it'll work out, and and knowing that you know I, having X will help me do better in that and something else, but not having something won't. So I think it's just having, I think it's a combination, like you said.
26:37 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, what do you say to the person? I don't think I'm wise, I don't really think I need to be wise.
26:47 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
I don't really think I need to be wise. A few people emailed me and they said after I read your book, one in particular, I feel like I'm intelligent but not wise. Wow. And they said you know, that's not the goal. The goal is not for you to feel like, oh, I lack. Right, the goal is for you to feel like oh, I can get better at, oh, I lack.
27:04 - Mark (Host)
Right.
27:04 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
The goal is for you to feel like oh, I can get better at and no one's perfect and no one is. As I said, only one person had all eight elements, and so the goal is for you to be like. I can use this as a stepping stone.
27:23 - Mark (Host)
And your book also has. I don't think we mentioned it in the book. After every chapter there's a little kind of questions to ask yourself and kind of work on okay, well, we just talked about resilience, let's see how resilient you are. We just talked about spirituality, humility. Answer these questions. Let you do some introspection and reflect on it.
27:40 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah.
27:41 - Mark (Host)
So I found that very helpful as well for anybody who's going to be reading it.
27:44 - Stacey (Host)
So how can we help you with this movement? Like you know, we have people that listen and watch and like what's the best way to reach out or help or join the wisdom movement and help support this?
27:55 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
I. I don't think people gravitate towards learning to be wise. As I said, it's not a sexy topic. I think it's more of telling them wait, this is not just wisdom. It's about how you live your life. It's about it'll bring more meaning to your life, and I've had several people already say oh, it's changed the way I think about things, it's changed the way I view things. And that's the goal is for you to feel like wait, you know, this is not just those eight elements, but each one is helping me. Do it, Just tell people about it and be like you know what. It's not just wisdom, it's more than that.
28:38 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, it's a great framework for living better period. And with living better comes more wisdom.
28:44 - Stacey (Host)
Thank you so much for bringing this to us, because I really this is my first foray into learning about this and it's really an eye-opening thing. I know you say it's not sexy, but there is something sexy about people with wisdom. That's all. It's short. I'm sure your marketer thinks it's sexy as hell.
29:01 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
I mean, she's like I love these people, they're so amazing. And I'm like, yeah, they are. And someone else who I went to med school with, she goes. That was so fun. I'm like, yeah, it really was and it was fascinating. But, as I said, after 20 people, they all said similar things. Right?
29:26 - Mark (Host)
That's great. What a great learning. Yeah Right, fantastic there is hope that we can have more wisdom in the world. For sure, thank you so much. This has been wonderful.
29:35 - Stacey (Host)
I really appreciate you taking the time to go over this with us.
29:38 - Dr. Laura Gabayan (Guest)
Thank you for having me.
29:44 - Stacey (Host)
You're still here. You're still listening. Thanks for listening to the Gurus and Game Changers podcast While you're here. If you enjoyed it, please take a minute to rate this episode and leave us a quick review. We want to know what you thought of the show and what you took from it and how it might have helped you. We read and appreciate every comment. Thanks, See you next week.